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| Hi zoe bird,
you are absolutely right.you need not feel any nervousness in practising yoga or teaching yoga.
yoga is not bound by any race or nationality.Havent we heard that yoga takes us beyond all distinctions.but i believe that to reach that yogic experience described in the scriptures and told by the yogis(the real ones) we need to practise yoga in its real form.what i express is just my opinion.
hi cyndi,
such terrible things do happen.Its so sad.let us identify those wolves in sheeps cloth and isolate them. |
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| i agree about practicing yoga in it's 'real' form--but defining that in light of the udnerstanding that anyone can practice, learn, and then teach that real form is the difficulty when we're talking about issues such as who should be hired to teach, and whom one should learn from.
and ultimately, i've found that any teacher with whom i come in contact has some lesson for me--whether it's from 'real yoga' or just simply the experience of their humanity (humanness, their error) that is in my path for me to learn about myself more deeply. |
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| Hi zoe bird ,
I understand your point.But the real form , Its very difficult to explain .Thats where the conflict arises.The nationality arises even though its trivial.If you are really interested ,you come to india learn the philosophy the spirituality the science the mystery the truth of yoga traveling and learning from traditional yoga shalas.It makes so much difference.Our yoga gurus,( not teachers and instructors) , so our yoga gurus are unique.I dont want to pick up another argument.infact i am finding it a pointless effort to convince through words.
forgive me , for saying this, but but yoga is india. No other place ,no one else can feel and live it and realise it like india. Many can conquer the lands study the scriptures analyse it comment on it but elas they did and are far away.Any one can do or say anything anywhere and can call it yoga.India can only giggle.
hey, people are gearing up to reply this with sarcastic, egoistic quotations tarnishing wisdom of the men and women who said it.
i may try to answer them until i lose interest. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | indianyogi - 2006-10-03 11:50 AM
but but yoga is india. No other place ,no one else can feel and live it and realise it like india. Many can conquer the lands study the scriptures analyse it comment on it but elas they did and are far away.Any one can do or say anything anywhere and can call it yoga.India can only giggle.
hey, people are gearing up to reply this with sarcastic, egoistic quotations tarnishing wisdom of the men and women who said it.
i may try to answer them until i lose interest.
I totally agree with this Indian Yogi.. having been married to an Indian/Nepali for 5 years, I truly understand yoga and the Hindu culture. My husband is a walking Yogi. He has the unique ability to "mingle" in this world with a uniqueness that cannot be described in words. If you were to watch him in action, whether it be in the grocery store, at a restaurant, at his job (which consists of lots of human interaction - he's a jeweler) it is absolutely incredible the "positive" energy that is naturally emitted to others,and the joy and comfort that you can obviously see others receive from his presence. He is adored and loved by everyone who comes into his contact, especially me,  It's in his blood, but it also comes from deep rooted generations of the Hindu culture, which is not something that you can discuss in a casual conversation. Its very deep. |
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| This is certainly an interesting debate.
I am interested in what you mean by "real form". This seems to imply that there is one yoga in India. In my experience, while the ultimate purpose of yoga is to help the practitioner transcend the lower self so they may realise a higher reality, this spiritual realisation is not necessarily understood in the same way by the different Indian traditions. This is why we find Hindu yoga, Buddhist yoga, Jain yoga, Sikh yoga etc.
When you invite us to India to study the philosophy of yoga, the question I ask is which philosophy? Dualistic v non dualistic, Hatha Yoga Pradipika v Yoga Sutras, the Bhagavad Gita v the Dhammapada? They are many Indian philosophies which, like their Western counterparts, are often contradictory.
Finally, if 'yoga is India', how do you feel an Indian yoga teacher would be different when teaching inside or outside India and if there is such a difference then surely it would not matter if someone teaching yoga in Taiwan was Indian or not.
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| indianyogi:
i understand your point and, to a point, i agree with you.
but many indian people, indian yogis, live in the west and teach in the west. we can go to them. Many westerners travel to india, live in india, and learn to 'be yoga' or however one would want to explain it. There, they become gurus who run shalas--western people. My good friend's guru runs a shala/ashram in india--and his nationality is romanian.
were this romanian return to romania, or were he to come to the US or australia--would he be less yogic? would his teachings be less real, less authentic? And to the converse, are those indian yogins who teach throughout the world and certify teachers, as well as 'ordain' (for lack of a better term) gurus who are westerners--are they less yogic? is their yoga less authentic?
and from this, are people who would be taught in india, of any nationality, and return home, or any indian who would teach elsewhere, is the simple act of teaching elsewhere make them less yogic? less authentic yoga?
this is not an argument, but simply a process of asking the basic question. Is yoga India, or is yoga something that transcends all of these things? And if so, why can't a westerner be 'just as good at 'being yoga' as an indian--assuming they have learned through a traditional lineage (either from indians, or people who traveled and studied in india, or people who studied with indians in their homelands, or people who studied with people form their homelands who studied in india, etc)? |
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| I suggest that we discuss this topic:
a) without taking any names such as who posted, etc.
b) just ask a question and answer it.
c) let the conclusion come out of its own.
d) in other words, discuss the question and related topic, and not the posters themselves.
My opinions:
When one wants someone to teach Yoga, they have in mind something called Yoga. That shall decide the background of the teacher. For example: If someone wants a Yoga Teacher to teach Sanskrit Chanting, there is no way you can find such a teacher in Western countries easily. One can say it is impossible, but actually there are few exceptions who are Europeans. But, they probably do not teach Yoga.
Whether chanting is Yoga or not? In my opinion, it is. And, it is as much Yoga as Asana is, contrary to belief in some circles.
If one is trying to learn asana, you shall probably find a better teacher in Western country than in India, even though world famous teachers are present in India. Because, these world famous teachers either teach in India or travel abroad, not stay abroad and teach at one place for long.
I agree with the original poster that a person from the place where the topic is common shall make the best teacher. But, I agree this only if the need is to teach those topics. If the topic is Asana, then I do not agree.
And, Asana practice alone is NOT Yoga. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| And how do we know how many past lifetimes we may have spent in India absorbing the "real" teachings in an authentic way? Who knows why yoga has travelled west at this time? I believe yoga is meant to be global now. I cannot learn chanting very well from my British teacher and not well at all from my Canadian teacher who, as we say, can't carry a tune in a bucket (her words  ) but I can listen to a CD of the monks that BKS Iyengar asked to record them. Then I can go to Virginia and listen to Neel. I know already that their accents are as different as my British teacher's and my own, but both are authentic and my quest for understanding and knowledge is sincere. If I choose to help others learn to chant, it is an offering of spirit that can start them on a path to their own seeking. It is all I can do and I do the best I can with the tools I have. |
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| tourist - 2006-10-03 7:09 PM
And how do we know how many past lifetimes we may have spent in India absorbing the "real" teachings in an authentic way? Who knows why yoga has travelled west at this time? I believe yoga is meant to be global now. I cannot learn chanting very well from my British teacher and not well at all from my Canadian teacher who, as we say, can't carry a tune in a bucket (her words ) but I can listen to a CD of the monks that BKS Iyengar asked to record them. Then I can go to Virginia and listen to Neel. I know already that their accents are as different as my British teacher's and my own, but both are authentic and my quest for understanding and knowledge is sincere. If I choose to help others learn to chant, it is an offering of spirit that can start them on a path to their own seeking. It is all I can do and I do the best I can with the tools I have.
yes, dear Sister Tourist. Even I do not mind attending your chanting class. But, our friend in Taiwan may not be satisfied with that. And, he is the one who is offering the job. But, just between you and me, I mean between Yoga.com and me, I have listened some of the most famous chantings by westerners. And, they can be called as singing, and not chanting. About an Indian Monk CD being used for chanting, I need a proof. That means, I need the Indian Monk CD, and then the student CD to compare. There is no compare with personal class. Please believe me. |
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Location: London, England | kulkarnn - 2006-10-04 10:44 PM
I suggest that we discuss this topic:
a ) without taking any names such as who posted, etc.
b ) just ask a question and answer it.
c ) let the conclusion come out of its own.
d ) in other words, discuss the question and related topic, and not the posters themselves.
Hi Neel,
I wasn't going to participate in this thread any more, not because of the personal insults, but because of the insults to a people as a whole-but I have to congratulate you-the above is equal to any sutra I have read: concise-precise. A book and a philosophy in four points. Publish!! 
Nick |
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| Wise words indeed kulkarnn.
Following your guidelines and continuing the discussion, the question I would offer for debate is "Are the teaching's of yoga universal, or is yoga India?
For me, yoga transcends a country or region and is a universal teaching appropriate for all cultures and sincere seekers. Having said that, in my experience, much of yoga's teachings are yet to be fully realised in the West and what many refer to as 'yoga' is simply the asana component of Hatha yoga, which while beneficial is only one aspect of a far greater picture.
There are wonderful (and authentic) Western teachers of chanting, such as Gill Lloyd and Paul Harvey, both students of Desikachar and of course Muz Murray who has been around for years quietly teaching chanting and mantra under the radar of commercial yoga. There are also many poor quality teachers, though this applies to both the East as well as the West. I have met many chanting teachers from both India and the West who even pronounce the word 'Hatha' incorrectly.
I agree with kulkarnn that what many teachers refer to as chanting is actually singing and would be interested in how you define the two. For me, a person may chose to sing to the divine, as in certain Bhakti practises (an outward focused evocation) while chanting is more of an internally focused invocation.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | A couple of things . . . just because someone is Indian (or any other particular nationality) doesn't automatically mean s/he will behave in a particular way or have particular qualities. As Nick indicated, that kind of thinking puts us on very dangerous ground.
And I love Tourist's analogy to baseball . . . if it is true that yoga is uniquely Indian and nobody does it like the Indians, then I guess that's true for the U.S. and baseball. All of those "foreigners" playing baseball are laboring under the illusion that they've got the hang of this uniquely American sport (like Hideki Matsui, for instance) while we Americans just giggle at their deluded efforts.
WhatEVER . . .  |
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| Modifying or even correcting my previous posts on this thread, now I state the following:
Actually, it is best for the advertiser to state what they want instead of stating that the instructor should be Indian. For example:
Yoga Instructor needed:
- who can speak in English/Chinese/Hindi/Sanskrit
- who knows chanting of Vedas
- who can demonstrate high proficiency in performing poses.
- who can teach the poses to an age group of 2 to 82.
- who knows breathing practices.
- who can speak in Sanskrit to Chinese, and make them understand.
- who has 5 years teaching experience.
ETC.
And, let any nationality jump in.
As for question from Jonnie about chanting: Is there any way I can hear it on the web? Or at Border's?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Neel - those are very good instructions for a useful advertisement. In North America there may be remains of racism but we have certainly learned to dislike overt signs fo it for the most part.
I know what you mean about the singing rather than chanting. It is lots of fun, it is delightful to hear and participate in and, as it is offered sincerely, I believe it is a practice of its own. The CD I have right now is from BKS - I understand he had so many students who wanted to learn the sutras properly, he arranged to have the CD made and distributed. I am currently learning sutra I-11 to I-16 to lead our local group (along with other students and teachers each doing 5 sutras each) in chanting the first pada at a celebration. I am excited and a little nervous! |
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| Russill Paul--who is indian as far as i can tell--teaches mantra in the west. he has a book called The Yoga Of Sound which is an excellent learning tool.
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| tourist - 2006-10-04 10:23 AM
Neel - those are very good instructions for a useful advertisement. In North America there may be remains of racism but we have certainly learned to dislike overt signs fo it for the most part.
I know what you mean about the singing rather than chanting. It is lots of fun, it is delightful to hear and participate in and, as it is offered sincerely, I believe it is a practice of its own. The CD I have right now is from BKS - I understand he had so many students who wanted to learn the sutras properly, he arranged to have the CD made and distributed. I am currently learning sutra I-11 to I-16 to lead our local group (along with other students and teachers each doing 5 sutras each) in chanting the first pada at a celebration. I am excited and a little nervous!
Dear Tourist: I know that there is small racism in North America.But, there is also another kind of racism in India. I really do not care about racism too much. I believe in making friends with all and then forget the racism part. Talking too much about racism, in a way, keeps it alive.
About chanting, let me send you those sutras cut out from my CD. Send address again.
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| Dear Neel,
I'm not sure about c.ds or borders but Muz has an interesting little site at:
http://www.mantra-yoga.com/
Jonathon |
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| jonnie - 2006-10-04 1:47 PM
Dear Neel,
I'm not sure about c.ds or borders but Muz has an interesting little site at:
http://www.mantra-yoga.com/
Jonathon
Do you know whether I can hear him on some website. Or, whether I can exchange something for a used copy of his work? Which one you recommend most? So far, I liked his website and am amazed at the change he has done in himself.
Peace |
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| Hi all
Well I drop this post, step away for a few days and look what happened!
Yowza?!
Okay, first to intentions - I am not rascist, indeed I have several Indian friends including my Yoga teacher (and many other friends of various nationalities).
Foolycooly I am aware that Taiwan is not China, I never said it was. However in addition to your advertisement I have also seen many adverts from China, hence my comment. I am well aware of the difference between Taiwan and China, and in fact on Tuesday I will be celebrating your National Day in London with my Taiwanese friend there.
To the question itself -- you should be aware that the posting of a job advertisement with unnecessary restrictions is in fact discrimination, and suspecting this I wanted to know if this was indeed a case of racial discrimination or if there was some valid reason of which I am not aware. E.g. maybe in Taiwan yoga students will only go to classes of Indian teachers because common opinion is that they are best -whether right or wrong, if your customers think this then it makes sense to me to provide what they want.
However you have no such reasons, just this analogy of a language instructor. Yoga is not a language - in languages it is fair to assume that a person who is a native to that language knows it better. There is no valid reason to assume that an Indian teacher is more knowledgeable or capable of teaching Yoga than any other nationality. My point is simple - you should not specify nationality restrictions in job advertismenets unless there si some practical reason why (e.g. visa restrictions), it is racial discrimination and is outlawed in many countries.
(Wandering slightly off-point, the analogy of a language teacher is further flawed - it has been my experience in learning languages that the best teachers are those who are native to your current language. Such people have gone through the process of learning the foreign language consciously, know the pitfalls and difficulties of learning, whereas native speakers learned many of the nuances at a young age and are not so good at explaining the 'why' that arises because much of their learning was unconscious).
Back to the point - there should be no racial discrimination in selecting the right person for a job. A person should be given a job only because they MERIT that appointment, that is they are the best candidate to take up the post in terms of ability. This may be Indian, this may be Taiwanese, this may be American, it doesn't really matter. But if employers are allowed to make restrictions such as those in this advertisement unchallenged then we who see such advertisements are effectively saying that it's okay to discriminate on the basis of race, which it is definitely NOT. So I would ask you to change your advertisement and keep an open mind when choosing the right person for the job, doing so on grounds of ability and experience in teaching Yoga not on their nationality or colour of their skin.
Indianyogi, I can see from your posts that you took my post somehow as personal criticism of you or your nation. If it's not already clear from the above, then please let me expand - I have no desire whatsoever to slight or impair the prospects of Indian yogi-s. I come to India each year and learn from Indians, but I do so only because these people in particular have the knowledge and wisdom that I seek. If those same people were Bratislavian or Nepalese I would still visit them regardless. My point is actually very similar to yours - that all people of all nations should have an equal chance to take up any job advertised.
Phew, hope that's all clear now. Peace to EVERYONE of ALL nationalities regardless!
Take care,
Scott |
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| Dear Neel,
I have some of Muz's audio cassettes that I'm happy to send to you. If you PM me a mailing address (not P.O box) and tel number I'll DHL them to you.
Jonathon |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Scott,
Just for the record, Nepalis is Indian. The 2 countries used to be one. In fact, Nepal is 100% Hindu, whereas India is NOT. In fact, if you want "true blue" authentic yoga, Nepal would be the place to go. Just an interesting factoid for ya. |
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| jonnie - 2006-10-05 8:49 AM
Dear Neel,
I have some of Muz's audio cassettes that I'm happy to send to you. If you PM me a mailing address (not P.O box) and tel number I'll DHL them to you.
Jonathon
Wow! Please do it Now! Address: 2410 Glengyle Drive, Vienna, VA 22181. Let me know your liking, and I shall send you something a) to eat b) to smell c) to read or d) to listen or e) to see.
Thanks in advance. My email is neel@authenticyoga.org |
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| Cyndi - 2006-10-05 9:27 AM
Hey Scott,
Just for the record, Nepalis is Indian. The 2 countries used to be one. In fact, Nepal is 100% Hindu, whereas India is NOT. In fact, if you want "true blue" authentic yoga, Nepal would be the place to go. Just an interesting factoid for ya.
That is why I want to go to Nepal! |
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| hello , i have alreday written u one mail but no response , i am in kaohsiung now . i hope to hear soon from you. have a good day . |
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Indian Yoga Instructor Wanted
