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high student?????? Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Yoga Teachers	Message format

SCThornley

Posted 2006-10-06 4:40 PM (#66490 - in reply to #66298)
Subject: RE: high student??????

either everything is sacred

or nothing is

Ritualized use is still use

I don't see the difference, but then again, I don't see the logic of the drug war.

NOW, if you wanna talk about ritual and induction then you haven't lived until you've drank enough ayahuasca brew to feel the sin spewing out of all possible orafices at the same time and being baptised by the light and having that life changing experience that 'ONCE IS ENOUGH' is the norm for those who've done it.

http://www.erowid.org/library/review/review.php?p=191

Edited by SCThornley 2006-10-06 4:41 PM

GreenJello

Posted 2006-10-06 6:12 PM (#66499 - in reply to #66487)
Subject: RE: high student??????

zoebird - 2006-10-06 3:53 PM
first, a non sequitor that may come around later: i've only been high once. i was 17 and went to a pearl jam concert. it was indoors. others were smoking pot (i didn't know what it was, i just thought it stank and was 'yucky smokey!'). apparently i left concert happy, drove home, and chatted my head off at my mother from midnite to 2 am while eating two chocolate pies.

Bingo! You don't remember do you? This is part of the problem, IMHO.

First time I got stoned, me and some friends of mine smoked about 4 bowls, which is an incredible amount, particulary if you've never done it before. Anyway, at one point I got up from the couch, which took incredible amounts of mental energy, and walked into one of bedrooms in the apartment we were in. I was standing in the doorway, for what felt like an eternity (probably 5 sec real time), and just could NOT remember how I had gotten into the room, just couldn't.

i had a latin test and a world literature test that day. i woke up at 6:30 am with probably the WORST headache i've ever had in my life. I mean, the headache i had when i miscarried wasn't as bad as this one. it was the worst. I was light and sound sensitive, and just in a total world of hurt.

This really surprises me, are you sure somebody didn't slip you something? Part of the reason people get hooked on pot is that there are almost no side effects. I usually don't get much in the way of a hang over from alcohol, but with pot I've never had a problem.

but i'm intrequed by the cross-cultural religious use of various substances over time to induce certain experiences or bodily/mind states that would allow for certain spiritual experiences. What i think is the lynchpin in these experiences is the context.

Which was pretty much Timothy Leary's thesis, set and setting. There's some truth to this, but I'd make the same argument for just about every other human experience.

So, i think that there's "something" to the ritualized use of these various substancse and their various medicinal (spirit medicine as well) uses, that would make them 'not blindfolds'--though without this context, i believe that there is great risk that they are blind folds--or greater risk.

Maybe, maybe not. My experiences with the people who are little bit more serious about this sort of thing leads me to think not. I have tried it without the college sort of "Hey lets all get stoned and watch cartoons" approach, and I really wasn't that impressed.

My other big problem with most of these drugs is that they make you very tired. They really take a huge toll on the body, mind, and spirit, and if you read about any serious experiments with these sorts of things, they all seem to come to this barrier. They do make some initial progress, but it all seems to end just about the time that the kindom of heaven is at hand. It's just not quite enough somehow, and they're pretty much back where they started. They're almost like Moses looking upon the promised land from atop the mountain, but denighed access.

tourist

Posted 2006-10-06 6:56 PM (#66505 - in reply to #66499)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

I am led to believe that a lot of the unpleasant side effects from pot smoking are from pesticides etc. used on them. But the concentration of the actual drug (THC, TCH?) is a lot greater than it was back in my day as well. And with ZB, I suspect that the effects of the two chocolate pies may have had a little something to do with it as well!

Posted 2006-10-06 7:00 PM (#66506 - in reply to #66499)
Subject: RE: high student??????

SCT:

actually, there is a difference in both process and outcomes based on context. For example, i can use pornography for titillation or for academic study (i've done both). During the observation (direct use), the reaction of my body is different depending upon context. The outcome is also different.

the same is true of drugs, at least as far as my observation goes. those who utilize it in religious/spiritual context (that is traditional) have a very different experience and outcome from the use. those who do not utilize it in the same way typically do not have a good experience and outcome.

thus, while i wouldn't use peyote simply to use it or on my own to have a 'spiritual experience'--i would consider the use of peyote if i were being lead by a native american medicine man or woman who was guiding me through the process and able to help me understand the outcome.

GJ:

I remember the concert, driving home, talking to my mother, having an overwhelming sense of joy and excitement, and hungry. I don't remember what i talked about with her, but that was 13 years ago. and i do remember that headache.

and yes, it is a problem outside of context as far as i can tell. in context, it seems to have a different effect--all of them do--and that's something that i find interesting. While i don't seek these experiences out, i wouldn't rule them out either with proper guidence (see above).

everything that i've read and people whom i've met who are contextualized in their use of drugs, seem to be very normal people, as well as deeply spiritual people. They also 'disdain' the recreational use of drugs for various reasons, or using drugs for spiritual development outside of context because of the 'knife's edge' issue of their use (the likelihood of misunderstanding and/or confusion) and caution against that use. Their clarity is pretty amazing.

are the same outcomes possible in sober methods? yes, they are. But it's simply a difference in technique--and both techniques have 'knife's edge' sorts of issues. both require mindfulness, and i find it difficult to simply categorically say that the ritualized uses for drugs (religious context) are the same as non ritualized ones or that the outcomes are the same when the research done (independent), or simply through my own experience of individuals who have done drugs ritualisticly over the years--their clarity is the same as a great spiritual person/leader who has not. it's simply that their disciplines and practicse where different.

again, i'm not seeking anything out, but holding up the possibility that those Shivan worshippers who utilize marijuanna are different than those guys who just apatheticly sit around waxing inanely poetic.

This really surprises me, are you sure somebody didn't slip you something?

no one slipped me anything. From the time i left the house, i didn't have anything to eat or drink, except the bottle of water in my car--which i'd filled at home and left in the car (locked) during the concert. I drank that water afterwards, and went home and had chocolate pies. I do love chocolate pie.

and yes, everyone tells me that it's 'unheard of' to have hangovers from pot. everyone i know who does pot regularly tells me it 'never happens.' but, it has happened to me, and so there it is.

There's some truth to this, but I'd make the same argument for just about every other human experience.

well, sure. human experience is ultimately some form of spiritual experience--whether conscious or not. and of course, just about everythign falls within the 'way is narrow' construct.

My other big problem with most of these drugs is that they make you very tired.

i think that any major effort can make you tired--i mean even yoga asana and pranayama can do it.

but, i do know that within certain contextualized uses--such as peyote use--the contextualized use includes a specialized process for once the peyote has passed your system where rest, nutritional supplementation, and a variety of other practicse are part of the process.

and lts not forget tantra overall. the ultimate tantric ritual (according to georg feuerstien among others) is that the 'hero' is drugged to high heaven and then left out in the funeral pyre grounds to confront Kali-ma. if they survive the experience, then they will have reached the ultimate (enlightenment or unity or yoga) through Kali-ma. If they don't, well, then. . .usually there's a mental break of some sort. So, it's not taken lightly and many tantrists do not even get to this level of ritualism. I suppose that it should be pointed out that this is in left-hand tantrism.

Posted 2006-10-06 7:02 PM (#66508 - in reply to #66298)
Subject: RE: high student??????

tourist:

i hadn't thought of it, but considering my general sensitivity to sugar, the two pies in so little time probably DID have something to do with it.

though it was certainly enough to keep me away from MJ! LOL

tourist

Posted 2006-10-06 7:05 PM (#66510 - in reply to #66508)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

That's exactly my problem! I dump the MJ and keep the d@mned chocolate!!! But really, one or the other is enough, because if you keep up with the first, you just eat more of the second. I'd be a blimp!!!

Posted 2006-10-06 7:08 PM (#66511 - in reply to #66298)
Subject: RE: high student??????

i hardly eat chocolate anymore. I have a nice bar of dark chocolate in my fridge--which is basicly sitting there and has been for a week. you know, i have it when i feel like it.

i know that MJ has a lot of medicinal effect too--as well as some spiritual implications. like i said, i'm not against it's use and wouldn't rule it out. Though i think vaporizing would be a good idea, rather than smoking.

Posted 2006-10-06 7:42 PM (#66513 - in reply to #66298)
Subject: RE: high student??????

stopping drugs after about five years of intense usage has been like stepping out of a fog.
my mind is far sharper than ever before, my asana practice is improved and i'm far less delusional.

its interesting to note, though, how much substance abuse is the prevading social norm for my generation. is unaltered consciousness so boring that one needs to get high just to pass the time? i suppose it was for a while...

more than that, though, it was a means for me to ignore the truth of my life and settle for mediocrity and indecision. it was easy to turn away from the real issues in my life when i knew that i'd be able to space out for a few hours, eat a ton of food, and laugh at things i wouldn't find amusing otherwise.

eventually, though, i couldn't continue ignoring the growing dissent inside...

it wasn't a challenge to stop. the challenge is to see the damage my friends are doing to themselves through sustained drug use, and how that is reflected in myself: the life i left behind and surely still cling to. lessons in compassionate detachment i suppose.

if a student were to present me with that statement, i would challenge them to penetrate into the true motivation of the behavior. the wily ego surely has some hand in this to be revealed.

i would also tell a student that while some sensations may be enhanced, being high interferes with the precise alignment of the body.

that is my experience.

Posted 2006-10-06 10:14 PM (#66515 - in reply to #66513)
Subject: RE: high student??????

This is one of the most powerful paragraphs I've read here.

dhanurasana - 2006-10-06 4:42 PM
more than that, though, it was a means for me to ignore the truth of my life and settle for mediocrity and indecision. it was easy to turn away from the real issues in my life when i knew that i'd be able to space out for a few hours, eat a ton of food, and laugh at things i wouldn't find amusing otherwise.

eventually, though, i couldn't continue ignoring the growing dissent inside...

GreenJello

Posted 2006-10-06 11:51 PM (#66521 - in reply to #66506)
Subject: RE: high student??????

zoebird - 2006-10-06 7:00 PM
and yes, everyone tells me that it's 'unheard of' to have hangovers from pot. everyone i know who does pot regularly tells me it 'never happens.' but, it has happened to me, and so there it is.

There's also the possibility that you're allegic to it.

Knew a lady who claimed that she had this problem, but only figured it out after years of use....

My other big problem with most of these drugs is that they make you very tired.

i think that any major effort can make you tired--i mean even yoga asana and pranayama can do it.

Yes, and no. I would say that the over effect of yoga asana is net energy gain, ie that it's a positive for the system. The same can not be said for drug use, particular repeated drug use, which seems to be at the core of a lot of the problems. The users need additional energy to continue the drug use, and support their normal life. All this energy has to come from somewhere, which usually comes from the people around them.

Even if you ignore the more subtle effects almost all intoxicants work based on the simple principle of inducing a toxic effect into the body. In the case of most popular intoxicants, the effect is seen to be pleasurable, and the toxic effects are not enough to be a serious threat to the body. However, the fact remains that you are poisoning your body, and causing it harm.

The type of harm that is done varies quite a bit based on the type of drug that is used. In the case of alcohol, there's a variety of bodily problems which are fairly well known. For MJ it depends on the delivery system (smoked, or eaten), and frankly we've deliberately stopped doing clinical trials in this country due to the illegal nature of the drug. In the case of more psychodelic substances, such as LCD, Magic Mushrooms, and E, the effects are not so bodily as their are mental. They usually cause a substantial drop in the levels of seratonin in the brain.

Finally, none of the effects are permanent or lasting. Since a large part of the mental state of alteration is based on the drug itself, the user is forced to either continue taking that drug, or find another way to reach the same state. Since the drugs are toxic, continued use is going to eventually catch up with the user.

and lts not forget tantra overall. the ultimate tantric ritual (according to georg feuerstien among others) is that the 'hero' is drugged to high heaven and then left out in the funeral pyre grounds to confront Kali-ma. if they survive the experience, then they will have reached the ultimate (enlightenment or unity or yoga) through Kali-ma.

Yes, but this is more like the final dissertation for a thesis, or the comprehensive exams given at the end of college for brits. There is a huge amount of build up, self study, and practice that comes before these sorts of things are engaged. Usually the supplicant has been studing for years under the master, and just needs that final push to set things right. (Kinda like a momma bird pushing the babies out of the nest).

Most westerns don't really want to go through with this, and see the drugs as a quick solution to a complex problem. In order to really be able to do this sort of thing, there has to be a support structure that just doesn't exist in our society. Even if you go through the ritual, it will be like an australian aborigine taking Mass. It just won't mean the same thing to him that it does to you, since you've got the years of culture and indoctrination.

Cyndi

Posted 2006-10-07 12:25 AM (#66522 - in reply to #66505)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

tourist - 2006-10-06 6:56 PM

I am led to believe that a lot of the unpleasant side effects from pot smoking are from pesticides etc. used on them. But the concentration of the actual drug (THC, TCH?) is a lot greater than it was back in my day as well. And with ZB, I suspect that the effects of the two chocolate pies may have had a little something to do with it as well!

That is the ONLY reason I quit smoking marijuana - all those chemicals and pesticides they started using back in the 80's...felt like I was smoking acid and OMG, those trips were pretty freaky....although, in the 80's once my neighbor from Equador gave me a couple of plants...grew them on my apartment balcony. Those plants ended up being over 15' high, I had to put shades up on the sides so neighbors couldn't see (they'd probably would of stole them if I didn't - even though I was on the second floor)...it was the best marijuana I ever had, I savored it for a year, it was my best stash...so pure. Then their is marijuana from Nepal....I can't wait to go to Nepal....and it's LEGAL!!! In fact, they have a festival day that allows you or it is acceptable to smoke marijuana...I think its Shivaratri, but there's another one too, then there is the hash they put in the food as well, prasad anyone??

Edited by Cyndi 2006-10-07 12:38 AM

Cyndi

Posted 2006-10-07 12:34 AM (#66523 - in reply to #66511)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

zoebird - 2006-10-06 7:08 PM

i know that MJ has a lot of medicinal effect too--as well as some spiritual implications. like i said, i'm not against it's use and wouldn't rule it out. Though i think vaporizing would be a good idea, rather than smoking.

Actually, that is not really true. Marijuana depletes the "jing" essence of the kidneys if done in excess. It can be quite damaging. There's not that much to tell about it except it is used in some of the shiva temples. It sure isn't in any of the peace pipes I've smoked recently with Native Americans...unless they put small minute amounts.

Vaporizing.....I don't know what that is, but we used to have such a thing called a "bong" with water in it. OMG, the people I hung around would get pretty creative with these things. I always liked the ones that would curl around all over the room and light up...it was really fun back there in the 70's!

Can you imagine me getting pulled over up here in NC, not that its bad enough being a blissful blonde driving a red sports car...and telling the cop..."Your officer sir, I only use it for "spiritual purposes"..."forgive me, I'm on my way back home from my yoga class", do you think that would fly???

For the record...all you NC State Troopers reading this forum...I don't smoke Pot, haven't in years...I'll wait till I get to a country where it is legal...please don't arrest me for discussing this in public...we're just having a friendly wishful conversation about Marijuana,

GreenJello

Posted 2006-10-07 8:48 AM (#66548 - in reply to #66523)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Cyndi - 2006-10-07 12:34 AM

For the record...all you NC State Troopers reading this forum...I don't smoke Pot, haven't in years...I'll wait till I get to a country where it is legal...please don't arrest me for discussing this in public...we're just having a friendly wishful conversation about Marijuana,

It's not the locals, it's the federalies with their illegal wiretaps you've gotta worry about....

tourist

Posted 2006-10-07 12:01 PM (#66553 - in reply to #66548)
Subject: RE: high student??????

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

Going back to ritualized use of these substances - I believe that cultures who do this a) don't use on a daily basis and b) insist on preparation of the body and mind plus allow for the energetic loss that follows such a trial by giving an appropriate rest period. I believe a lot of people have a very disrespectful attitude to these things - "oh, the so and so natives use this stuff all the time" or trying to justify a 3 pack a day cigarette habit by saying it is a sacrament to the North American natives.

SCThornley

Posted 2006-10-07 2:32 PM (#66562 - in reply to #66513)
Subject: RE: high student??????

dhanurasana - 2006-10-06 7:42 PM

stopping drugs after about five years of intense usage has been like stepping out of a fog.
my mind is far sharper than ever before, my asana practice is improved and i'm far less delusional.

its interesting to note, though, how much substance abuse is the prevading social norm for my generation. is unaltered consciousness so boring that one needs to get high just to pass the time? i suppose it was for a while...

more than that, though, it was a means for me to ignore the truth of my life and settle for mediocrity and indecision. it was easy to turn away from the real issues in my life when i knew that i'd be able to space out for a few hours, eat a ton of food, and laugh at things i wouldn't find amusing otherwise.

eventually, though, i couldn't continue ignoring the growing dissent inside...

it wasn't a challenge to stop. the challenge is to see the damage my friends are doing to themselves through sustained drug use, and how that is reflected in myself: the life i left behind and surely still cling to. lessons in compassionate detachment i suppose.

if a student were to present me with that statement, i would challenge them to penetrate into the true motivation of the behavior. the wily ego surely has some hand in this to be revealed.

i would also tell a student that while some sensations may be enhanced, being high interferes with the precise alignment of the body.

that is my experience.

Nothing beats life experience, huh, Andrew?

Posted 2006-10-07 4:14 PM (#66570 - in reply to #66562)
Subject: RE: high student??????

SCThornley - 2006-10-07 1:32 PM

Nothing beats life experience, huh, Andrew?

nope...
but ignorance and inertia put up a pretty good fight...

SCThornley

Posted 2006-10-07 5:27 PM (#66580 - in reply to #66570)
Subject: RE: high student??????

dhanurasana - 2006-10-07 4:14 PM

SCThornley - 2006-10-07 1:32 PM

Nothing beats life experience, huh, Andrew?

nope...
but ignorance and inertia put up a pretty good fight...

True that my soul jah.

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