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Geometrically Impossible
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Yogui-bubu
Posted 2006-11-18 6:06 AM (#69595)
Subject: Geometrically Impossible


Dear Friends,

I have very long legs (over 75% of my body are legs!), and I cannot pass the legs through the arms when making Vinyasa, due to this. There are so much variations to do Vinyasa, but I think its very difficult to me to do this.

That recommend to me that does, in a future to be able to pass my feet through my arms?

Best reggards.
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-18 7:20 AM (#69598 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Hi Yogui-bubu,

It is a common misconception that long legs can prevent jump throughs/backs. I know many people with short legs who can't do them either.

The secret is to raise your sit bones upwards so your hips can move forwards. The movement you are looking for is similar to that of entering into a handstand/full arm balance, so also practising the initial movement against a wall is useful.

Also, I recommend crossing the legs at the shins (not the ankles) and pulling the knees high into the chest as you swing through. This involves a strong abdominal action and engaging the bandhas.

A useful asana to practise is lol asana. If you can't do lol asana, then practise it. If you can, then ask a friend to help push your knees to your chest while in the pose. You'll then see that you will swing quite nicely. All you have to do then is build the strength to hold the knees in close yourself.

I have a suspision that this is an area where Nick will be an expert.....

Have you found an Ashtanga teacher in Spain yet?

Jonathon
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Yogui-bubu
Posted 2006-11-18 7:43 AM (#69600 - in reply to #69598)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Dear Jonnie,

I take a good note of your interesting information.
Have you found an Ashtanga teacher in Spain yet?

Yes, there's a Certified teacher, in Oviedo (just at the opposite direction of my residence), and another ones in Barcelona and Madrid. I'm trying to take a initiating class with an expert teacher... but think that I only have practiced for three months... and any similarity of my asanas with which Darby or Scott, or the teachers do or explain, is pure coincidence!

I'm only a very interested beginner, with too many questions about this interesting way of yoga.

Thanks for your information, Jonnie.

Edited by Yogui-bubu 2006-11-18 7:44 AM
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-18 7:58 AM (#69601 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Hi Yogui-bubu,

I began practising Ashtanga about 15 years ago with a man called Derek Ireland (he taught John Scott).

He lived in Greece at the time and visited the U.K two or three times a year to teach us the next part of the sequence. He used to give us wonderful handouts for self practise with references to Iyengar's 'Light on Yoga' book. If you private message me your address, I'll send you a copy. If you are then able to find a good Iyengar teacher near you, you can combine the two.

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-18 8:59 AM (#69609 - in reply to #69600)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Rafael,
The ability to bring the legs through is dependent on so many factors-strength, flexibility, ability, proportions, fitness, etc. Well, you cannot change your proportions, but you can use the other factors to effectively optimize the shape of your torso, arms, and legs so that lifting through is easier. For example, students often bend the arms at exactly the moment they try to lift off the floor-I was pointing this out to someone yesterday. This action means that the action of triceps is emphasized, in that the triceps are then used to lift the torso off the floor. By keeping the arms straight, the bandha are emphasized-very difficult, but ultimately the way to go. It also means that the height is set at which you want to lift the feet through-otherwise you are trying to attain height at the same time as you are trying to lift through-best get the height first, by keeping the arms straight.
Of course, the reason this is difficult is usually because people are usually weak in the abdominals-but the abs will strengthen. To do this, the spine must be kept close to neutral as possible. If the spine is kept in neutral, you have the added benefit of being able to keep the shoulders 'down,' the arms are effectively longer, and the legs and feet are drawn towards the front of the torso-if the spine rounds, then the front of the torso is effectively being pulled away from the inside of the thighs-not useful at all! Keep the back as straight as you can! This helps with the rest of the movement, as you try to extend your spine to bring your feet towards the ceiling or back into chaturanga dandasana.
Failing that, can of popeye's spinach may also prove effective

The website below is full of useful tips on training with parallettes-these are a very useful training tool for those who wish to learn to vinyasa. You have to register on the site, but it's free-lots of training tips! If you can master the parallette-well, the chances of a worthwhile vinyasa are much greater-no promises!

Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-18 1:33 PM (#69624 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


and the website is.....
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-18 1:37 PM (#69625 - in reply to #69624)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi johnnie,
Ooops! Sorry!
http://www.american-gymnast.com/tt/index_140.cfm
Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-18 1:44 PM (#69626 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Hi Nick,

It's funny but I knew that was the site you were going to recommend before you even posted it. It was the reference to the parallettes exercises.

I have used their site for a while as well, trying to master my full arm balance. I actually use push up bars instead of 'official' parallettes as they are a lot cheaper.

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-19 2:46 AM (#69664 - in reply to #69626)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Johnnie,
It's a great website, isn't it-I'm trying to set one up for astanga yoga with lots of video clips, but it's going to take a while, I fear
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-20 3:54 AM (#69735 - in reply to #69626)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Johnnie,
there is a problem with using parallettes-it's very ahrd to get into a handstand without jumping-because the feet are below the level of the hands, it's even harder than on the floor, in some ways, at least-maybe try putting your feet on blocks or books-the greater the height of the block, the easier the handstand will be-and it's the first mm which is difficult if you lift from the floor, so it's quite good to get a bit of a hand by starting with more height under your feet.

Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-20 8:27 AM (#69752 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Hi nick,

I wish!!!

I don't use the parallettes for my full arm balance, I used them for developing abdominal strength for lift ups (lol asana) and my jump backs/throughs.

the site has great advice for the Full arm balance, though mine is still strictly on the floor (with two hands!!)

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-20 9:32 AM (#69755 - in reply to #69752)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Johnnie,
There's a hell of a lot of exercises on that website that have me going "I wish" Like you say, the parallettes are great for training the lift up-but again, I think that because you are faced with basically doing a dip, in order to straighten the arms, it may be that you then attempt to lift in the vinyasa by attempting to use the arms-when I use parallettes, I try to keep my arms straight as I lift off the floor-you really feel it in the abdominals, and it helps to pre-brace them so that you do not over-flex your lower back as you attempt to lift off the floor with your legs out in front of you (obviously also helps the lift up in vinyasa). I also think you have to be careful not to end up with hip flexors which are shortened, or perhaps only strong at a certain length.
Take care
Nick
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Yogui-bubu
Posted 2006-11-20 9:52 AM (#69757 - in reply to #69609)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


I think all ideas are interesting... principally if there comes from who has practised much more...

Failing that, can of popeye's spinach may also prove effective
Nick

I think it will be my last option...

Tks for your interesting notes...
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Yogui-bubu
Posted 2006-11-20 10:12 AM (#69760 - in reply to #69625)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Nick - 2006-11-19 7:37 PM

Hi johnnie,
Ooops! Sorry!
http://www.american-gymnast.com/tt/index_140.cfm
Nick


Very interesting...
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ankali
Posted 2006-11-20 11:32 AM (#69765 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


i don't know if my legs are too long, but my arms are definitely too short
at first, it seemed impossible to me too... it took weeks, but one day, it just happened (what a thrill !) and it keeps getting easier and easier... so don't give up Yogui-bubu !
Understanding that I had to lift my hips made a big difference.

Now I have a similar problem (arms too short ) with upluthee,
that part of the finishing sequence where you're supposed to sit in Padmasana (i'm only in half lotus) and lift yourself...
I know you're supposed to use your bandhas, but for the moment, I'm just not getting the feel for it... any tips anyone ???
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-20 11:48 AM (#69766 - in reply to #69765)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Ankali,
I try to keep my pelvis forwards of my arms-this really challengs the bandha, wheras letting the hips swing back tends to take the focus off bandha

Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-21 5:27 AM (#69801 - in reply to #69755)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Nick - 2006-11-21 5:32 PM

I also think you have to be careful not to end up with hip flexors which are shortened, or perhaps only strong at a certain length.
Take care
Nick



Hi Nick,

I used the bars as a transitional aid. Why would the hip flexors shorten to much?

...and now for something totally different!

What's your opinion on skipping and flexibility? I have avoided running and cycling for a few years now because of the adverse effect they had on my hamstrings. Do you think skipping has a tightening effect as well?

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-21 10:27 AM (#69808 - in reply to #69801)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Jonnie,
I'm asumming that you are doing the L-plant-in order to lift the legs, the hip flexors must contract strongly-then they hold the legs horizontally. In fact, the hip flexors have to hold the legs up whether you cross them or keep them straight-it's just that the length of the muscle will be different and so will its force of contraction.

Skipping? Brilliant exercise-don't stop! Skipping may well tighten up the hamstrings, and quite a lot else besides-but then you need strong hamstrings, for example, to bring the feet close to the body when you are lifting through-helps keep the feet from getting stuck on the floor.
There is far too much emphasis on hamstring flexibility in yoga-in my humble opinion, this is one of the underlying reasons for knee problems with all forms of hatha yoga-people who do anything to stretch their hamstrings will often hyper-extend the knee, hold bad spine posture in forward bends (to enable them to keep their legs straight more easily), and also avoid doing exercise which may improve their whole body function but which has the effect of tightening the hamstrings-running, swimming, cycling, for example. Perhaps a good way of looking at this is to say that the desire for better performance may come at the expense of better function-whether that is hamstring function, or whole body function.
Does that make sense?
Take care
Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-21 12:20 PM (#69820 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


Hi Nick,

This would have been another excellent answer, if I hadn't just read about you peeing on your mat.

Reeeeeeally, how can I take you seriously now
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-21 12:59 PM (#69825 - in reply to #69820)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Sorry Jonnie,
Didn't mean to bring down the tone of the board
Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-21 1:11 PM (#69827 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


That's ok nick, I forgive you. And as a token of good faith, I'll order a bottle when you start selling it. I can't promise to use it though

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Nick
Posted 2006-11-22 11:44 AM (#69901 - in reply to #69827)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Jonathon,
Do you want still, or frothy?

Take care
Nick
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jonnie
Posted 2006-11-22 1:12 PM (#69915 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


I'll have to get back to you on that one when I've stopped vomiting.

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2006-11-22 1:35 PM (#69918 - in reply to #69915)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Jonathon,
I hope to god know one else is reading this
Getting back to the vinyasa, I find it often helps if I can get students to engage their glutes-this is difficult, because, the hip flexors are contracting, and the hip is flexing-the more the better, to lift the knees higher-of course, sartorius must also play a large part. So I try to encourage a co-contraction of the gluteal muscles, which has the effect of lifting the sitting bones away from the floor, and a better posture in general for lifting off the floor. you will notice that the pelvic floor, abdominals, diaphragm (all components of core stability) are also active.
Because the glutes are active, the hip is more externally rotated, bringing the knees closer to the chest. Also, because the fibres of gluteus maximus merge with the contralateral (opposite side) latissimus dorsi, the lats then pull the pelvis away from the floor more strongly. This is because tension at one muscle will result in changes in another muscle, especially if their direction of pull is the same. The lats also serve to lift the hips above the head and extend the spine. Furthermore, because the lats serve to extend the arm, they help to prevent the bending at the elbows that is a common mistake (in my humble opinion), as discussed earlier.

Take care
Nick

Edited by Nick 2006-11-22 1:36 PM
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ankali
Posted 2006-11-28 10:36 AM (#70261 - in reply to #69595)
Subject: RE: Geometrically Impossible


thanks for the advice, Nick
I'll keep working on that one
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