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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
"maybe your views have been tainted slightly by having come into contact with "b*stardized" teaching methods"
Not at all-my only true teacher of astanga yoga is Danny Paradise, and I think he was there almost at the beginning, when the form was first seen in the west. I recognize the forms that have sprung up in imitation of astanga yoga, and have little time for any of them-watering the from down, as they generally do, provides me with insight about what the teachers know that invented the form-and it doesn't usually come across well.
The way I teach does not make astanga yoga easier-much harder, if anything. Most people can jump back in a sun salute-not many can lift every time. When you start to understand lifting it brings a new dimension to practicing yoga that is probably unique.
If I may, Slow Pie, I will use part of your sentence above to say that it is astanga yoga teachers who are not conversant with human antomy and physiology as pertaining to the way they teach who are b*stardizing astanga yoga-by attempting to do postures and movements which each student's unique anatomy and physiology, they are attempting to use postures that the human body cannot sustain without injury. In order to make astanga yoga safe, it is important not just to look at the results of a student's actions i.e. getting into a more advanced posture, but to know of the consequences of attaining that posture-can the body react appropiately i.e. become more highly trained, or is injury likely to result?
Take care
Nick |
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| Well, I have no way to say whether you would judge my teachers to be part of the group of "teachers who are not conversant with human antomy and physiology as pertaining to the way they teach who are b*stardizing astanga yoga". And equally, I have no way of knowing whether your teacher is fantastic or not, though I do notice that he is not listed as one of the authorized or certified ashtanga teachers. However, if he is a travelling teacher, he would not be listed if he were only authorized as only certified travelling teachers are listed. But whatever. From reading his bio, he has been practicing for a long time indeed, and is one of the first that brought this form of yoga westward, but his training under Pattabhi Jois seems shorter than the one my teacher went through (at the start in 1979, he spent 4 years in Mysore training directly with Sri KPJ, and has gone back yearly for a few months at a time). I'm not trying to play a silly game of "my daddy is stronger than your daddy". I simply think that perhaps you would learn something or feel differently if you had the opportunity of taking sessions with different teachers, even if it is only to reinforce your view that the traditional methods and practice are wrong (or fine-tune your approach as a consequence). If you are convinced that you have seen all there is to be seen and taught with regards to ashtanga, and that even the recognized authorities in the field have nothing left to give to you, and that your particular brand of ashtanga has reached the maximum potential of its development, then okay. But I think it would be hard to come to such a conclusion, no matter how many years of experience a person has, and how complete their knowledge is. There is no end to growth, in my mind. I hope I don't come off as confrontational. I guess I'm trying to play the devil's advocate a bit.
Respectfully, sp |
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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
Not at all, I like playing the devil's advocate too  I have of course taken instruction from other famous teachers, John Scott, Davis Swenson are two that spring to mind. And forgive me, but getting to be a certified astanga yoga teacher is probably not what Danny is about-as long as I've known him, he has been against any form of accreditation-I think he feels that it leads to antipathy and stifling-and it has done, in my country, and from this board, i can see that it has occurred across the spectrum. I'm not saying that I'm against it per se, and it probably isn't good to speak for someone else, but we have had various conversations over the years.
Also, Danny is one of the few western adepts of the form-being a certified teacher does not mean the same thing. The number of certified teachers in the world is obviously a lot greater than the number of adepts.
And another thing!! I can assure you that I continue to learn and be amzed every minute of every day at the marvellous opportunity that astanga yoga presents me with every day of my life. I hope that a feature of me is that my knowledge makes me realize how much I don't know, not just to bask in what I do, and to continue to improve my perception of the events that occur in yoga practice. This does not involve getting a certificate that I can wave around so that people are impressed by my closeness to a famous figure. And my dad is bigger than your dad
Nick |
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| Hi guys (and guyettes),
This is an interesting debate.
Nick, I've read and reread your posts and there is nothing there that i disagree with. I think you are spot on.
It's actually quite difficult to define 'traditional' Ashtanga Yoga. Not if you read the 'official' history, but if you look at people who have studied with PJ from the beginning the practise has definately changed.
Breaths per posture have decreased from 12 to 8 to 5 over the years and Parivitta Trikonasana and Parivitta Parsvakonasana were added after David williams and David swenson began training with him (those two asanas are actually BKS Iyengar inventions).
Jonathon |
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| ...not to mention the move from a full vinyasa between asanas to the current trend of the half vinyasa.
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Yes, it seems to be evolving-some things for the better, other things for the worse. Maybe the worse things will die out, like an evolutionary adaptation that proves useless. Completely off the subject (maybe..), I was reading in New Scientist (I know, don't give me a hard time) the other day about evolution:
"In 1919, a humpback whale with a pair of leg-like appendages more than a metre long, complete with a full set of limb bones, was caught off vancouver"
It's a really interesting article, pictures of people with extra fingers, from when our amphiian ancestors had eight, and other stuff. One really interesting one is hiccups, which apparently have baffled scientists for centuries-hiccups may be a primitive reflex inherited from our ancestors-they were primitive air-breathers which had both gills and lungs. Apparently the action of the hiccup closely resembles creatures such as the lungfish when they close their glottis to stop water getting in the lungs and contract the mouth cavity to brush water over the gills. So that means the contraction of the glottis in ujjayi breathing may be another trait we owe to our ancestors.
Told you it was off-topic
Nick
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Ashtanga is lovely stuff, but I think that only primary series is a complete "sequence". Second and third series have several good fragments of sequences tied together, but as they are commonly taught in the US today, there's not enough time spent in the various asanas for them to be properly preparatory for the deeper poses that are interspersed in these series. I think that by breaking the 5 breath pace, and by skipping some of the more irrelevant vinayasas, it's possible to do second and third series comfortably and REACHING THE FULL EXPRESSION of the poses. I don't really think it counts to do a bad version of a difficult pose just so you can keep up with a tempo. And I agree with Desikachar's comment about some of these sequences being designed by a teacher who was trying to manage a room full of 18 year olds. ... bg |
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Location: London, England | Hi BG,
You last post post is, to me, a very interesting perspective. And this question is only the question of a fellow student-but if you cast your mind back to when you first tried the primary series, assuming you had not tried any other form of yoga-wasn't that largely irrelevant as well? I mean, if someone had tried to get you into a handstand from navasana, or marichyasana D, or kurmasana, or tittibhasana-to most students, these would be irrelevant, ant for some, if they had been forced into the full expressions of these postures, or even just partial expressions of these postures, they would be in hospital or running from the class. Some kind of candid camera situation would be interesting
I fully appreciate your take in the 'irrelevant' postures from the second and third series, therefore, but cast your mind back to the first series,and wouldn't that become full of the same incompleteness? I mean, when I was taught the series, nauli was used-if Danny had said 'you cannot continue beyond nauli if you cannot continue', then I would have finished the class after four or six repetititions of uddiyana bandha. I wouldn't have gone back for another class.
Just a thought. I'm not disagreeing with you, quite the contrary.
Nick
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| Hi nick,
I was climbing in Russia a few years ago. We had an Irish doctor in the party who was explaining that there is a small pertcentage of people being born now without a particular tendon in their arms (or wrists). I forget which one it is, though it's one that humans would have used for swinging (in trees) and is largely redundant in most humans now. This was seen as one of the next small steps in our evolution.
Jonathon |
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| BG Guruji does say that primary series is yoga therapy, second if for the nervous system and beyond that it's just for demonstration.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Hi Nick, I certainly appreciate your comments on beginning students. I really meant my comments on the full expression of the asanas as they'd apply to *advanced* students who are attempting to do these series as written. The deeper twists and backbends require initial loosening up if they are to be done correctly. I think this shows up in some of the ashtanga videos on the market in which beautiful surya namaskaras are accomplied by very shallow or misaligned backbends. I agree that many beginners will have a tough time with even "simple" things in first series, such as those you mentioned, and that skipping or modifying would be the only proper technique. DD -- I've heard the comment about being for show before, and I can't argue with it given the source! The first half of 3rd series is a classical progression of vinyasa'd armbalancing -- the rest of that series seems to me to be nothing but drama. ... bg
Edited by Bay Guy 2007-01-20 9:48 AM
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
That's palmarus longus-a small vestigeal muscle, absent in 10% of the population.
Nick |
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| Hm, I got caught up on the "nauli" thing someone mentioned above, forget who and to lazy to check again. I'd never come across the concept so I looked it up and it sounds rather interesting. The articles I read seemed to say that this is now rarely taught... Why is that? Did it somehow become obsolete, or it is typically reserved for those few adepts who are looking to take yoga to the next level? Is it contraindicated on some level, or what? I might be interested in trying it out, I like the idea of the toning and massaging of the organs and the digestive tract. Can a person choose to learn this on their own, or is it best not to attempt this without the guidance of a teacher?
Maybe one of these days I'll look into attending a class or workshop that addresses pranayama specifically, including more advanced techniques. I find it rather fascinating. Mind you, I'm still trying to master ujjayi, so one step at a time. (I'm happy to report that in my session today, I think I successfully maintained the pace of my breathing throughout my practice, and almost consistently maintained the ujjayi breath. And it didn't take too much focus. I think it's starting to come naturally!)
sp |
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| Hi SP,
Nali is one of the shatkarmas/kriyas of Hatha Yoga.
In order to learn nali, you need a strong practise in Uddiyana Bandha first.
Just to confuse things a little, the way Uddiyana Bandha is practised in Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga is very different (much more milder) than the way it's usually practised in traditional Hatha Yoga.
It is very important to learn UB/nauli from a teacher proficient in the technique and not from a book.
Jonathon
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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
Some authorities say no nauli at menstruation, or at ovulation if you are trying to get pregnant.
Nick |
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| Thanks for the caution and info jonnie and Nick, I'll hold off trying any of these things until I can attend some sort of seminar, and probably not anytime soon either.
sp |
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| Oh, and with regards to sweating (how did we get here from there?  ), I practically killed myself today after soaking my mat during the backbends (especially urdhva dhanurasana), and then trying to do vinyasa on my mat. It felt like one of those carpet things that you run water on thru a hose and that the kids play around on sliding (what's that called anyways?). I had to flip my mat over in order to keep myself from falling flat on my face in downward dog! 
Never ceases to amaze me how even a beginner level class, as taught by my prof, can actually make me sweat more than a level 2 class sometimes. He really works us hard!
sp
Edited by slowpie6 2007-01-21 6:00 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
They should have intravenous drips for savasana
Nick |
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| nick
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| Slow. You are referring to a Slip and Slide. One of the great inventions of our time. |
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| Ah yes! A slip and slide... I had a deprived childhood I guess, because I never used one of those gadgets. Mind you, we never had a lawn, so it was probably for the best, seeing as using that inside an apartment might be problematic. I did once manage to flood the apartment by forgetting I had a bath running and getting on the phone... but it wasn't nearly as fun as a slip and slide must be,  .
Anyways, my mat is still turning into a slip and slide, it's a big problem actually. I think it's time to invest in a better sticker mat... Now which color?! ( still haven't figured that out)
sp |
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| SP
I got a cotton mat for Xmas. I put it on top of my sticky and it soaks up most of the sweat. I fold it back when I need the traction (prasarita padottanasana, purvottanasana) but most of the time it just catches the moisture.
I haven't washed it out yet, maybe it ought to go in the machine............
Ian |
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Sweat and heat
