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 revisiting (down) dog and coreModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
riftweaver |
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| OrangeMat |
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| Nick |
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    Location: London, England | Hi Jason, Glad that was of some help. I would try to hold the same contraction on the transitions-you will find that it should help dynamic balance as well as static balance. The upward dog pose is very difficult for those with existing SI problems. What you are doing with your lats sounds good, try to continue that action down in the lumbar sacro-iliac joints. Usually it helps to flatten the lumbar spine slightly in chaturanga dandasana by extending the hips, but I should think you know that already. About the latissimus-the lats insert into the humerus, and the origin is through a broad tendon called an aponeurosis which attaches the lats to the lumbar spine and pelvic brim. So when you contract your lats to pull the shoulder down, you will also pull on the pelvis. The orientation of them uscle fibres means that tension in the lats will be continued into the gluteal muscles of the opposite side-look at any anatomy model showing these two muscles and you will see that they form a sling across the torso. So this is probably why you find that engaging the lats helps with your SI problem. Well done-this kind of stuff is at the forefront of therapeutic research at the moment, so you are on the cutting edge  Nick | ||
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| riftweaver |
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OrangeMat - 2007-02-07 3:22 PM Maybe I've been doing yoga wrong all along, but doesn't everyone hold in their core in every pose? In transitions as well as holding, at least that's how I've always done. Maybe it's just my fitness background talking here, but I really didn't know that you weren't supposed to at least attempt to keep the navel in and up at all times. Heh, news to me. To me, there is a difference between gently pulling the navel in/up, and the contraction I was achieving in this type of down dog action. The contraction was fairly muscular; moreso than I believe uddiyana bandha is supposed to be. But I've been at it a year and I still find the bandhas a mystery, so don't ask me.  Nick -- are you going to put out that book while all this stuff is still cutting edge, or wait until it's established science? --Jason | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| divamadge |
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| divamadge |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ralph, Please go on begging I personally hold the view that you shouldn't hold this contraction, but a more subtle version of it, throughout the practice. Like a sprinter on the blocks, the relevant core muscles are then ready to react when needed, like in downdog, lifting into the inversions, etc, with maximum contraction, or with less contraction in postures like janu-sirsasana, to stop the low spine from flexing too much. The breathing is the key-the rigth amount of contraction in the vocal cords will activate low contraction levels of the pelvic floor, deep spinal muscles, and abdominals, plus the diaphragm. If you look at some pictures of these muscles on-line, you will see that they surround the perimeter of the abdominal cavity, and that stiffening the muscles is then like building a piston and cylinder (diaphragm is the piston) for a steam engine-it resists those forces which would damage or decrease the function of either the cylinder or the piston. Then you can use bandha and have perfect breathing throughout your practice. Plus, both bandha and breathing are trained by practice. Hope that helps, it's an easy thing to write, harder to accomplish. Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| pippin |
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Nick - 2007-02-08 8:56 AM So all this time that people have been learning to draw their abs in, they have actually been learning to destroy their SI's and lumbar spine. Or at least become less able. Nick, I don't understand  This is exactly what I'm being told to do. How to engage the uddiyana bandha without pulling the lower belly in? To be honest, I'm very confused about proper technique, I'm doing ashtanga teacher treaning and getting different information from different course teachers... also, regarding the sun salutations, i find it very difficult to keep the proper distance between the hands and the feet, namely, if i jump back to a distance where transition from chaturanga to updog is comfortable, it turns out to be far too big for downdog and/or warrior. on the other hand, if i shorten that distance, transition to updog is nearly impossible. is it a matter of technique or strenght? | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neda, I know, it's confusing to have so mant instructions isn't it? Have to go and teach now, will give a detailed reply when I return. But I think that part of the problem is that because many people have an excessive curve of the low back, then drawing the navel back towards the spine has the effect of normalizing the back curvature. The problem is, that this contraction then becomes inappropiate when you adopt a forward bend, for instance, where you are trying to stop the low back from flexing. It also means that all the sitting postures are affected, as the spinal position is compromised and the wrong muscles are used to support the posture. I'll be back later Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| TampaEric |
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| pippin |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi again Neda, I'll try to pick a few point out about uddiyana bandha, you'll need an anatomy textbook or go on-line (this is preforable, but you have to be able to discern which sites have the best information, if I have the time and the inclination, I'll look them up later). There are four abdominal muscles either side of the mid-line (some people also have a muscle called pyramidalis, but we needn't concern ourselves with this one). The deepest abdominal muscle is called Tranversus abdominus (TrA). It functions to increase the intra-abdominal pressure (IAP) and provide segmental stabilization of the lumbar spine. Segmental stabilization is a term that is used to describe each vertebra being held more securely. If you imagine the spine to be like a bicycle chain, the action of TrA is like putting superglue in the rivets. The internal oblque muscles are next, followed by the external oblique muscles. These three muscles form what is know as the lateral abdominal musculature. They also raise the IAP, and will also flex the trunk, as in a crunch, or rotate it. The rectus abdominus is the only mid-line abdominal muscle, origin is at the pubic bone, from there it runs up to join onto the sternum and rib cage. It also flexes the trunk. I think one of the reasons it has become so popular to draw the navel back towards the spine is because of the reason I gave in the last post, and also because TrA has been heavily investigated as a means of rehabilitating pack pain patients. In people without back pain, this muscle switches on before they move-in back pain patients, it either does not activate, or activates too late, meaning the spine reaches a painful position without any opposition from those muscles which are designed to stop it from moving into a painful position. All well and good, but the fact is that practically every muscle in the human body is probably altered by pain, so it may be that the current emphasis on TrA is mis-founded (and I do think there is too much emphasis on this muscle in Pilates and yoga). Let me quote from my favourite book, anatomy and human movement: "The combined action of the abdominal muscles, together with the diaphragm, can also produce a 'muscular corset' which holds the abdominal viscera in place. This action can be increased during activites, such as lifting..'which forms a pneumatic cushion in front of the spine and segmentally stabilizes the lumbar spine (the last bit was my addition). Notice it says 'combined action.' This means that when you hollow your abdomen, there is no combination at all-the hollowing is created by TrA, principally. TrA is a very weak muscle, but when you combine the abdominal muscle contraction, even without squeezing that hard, the stiffness of the spine is dramatically increased. In fact, they say it is the first 25% of contraction which produces the most signifant increase in spinal stiffness. This is good news for yoga practicioners, who do not have to hold a strong contraction for the whole session. In fact, I would say that it is much easier to hold this contraction than it is to hollow the abdomen. I would say, therefore, that rather than trying to affect your spinal posture by using your TrA, you should affect your spinal posture by tilting the pelvis to a position which emphasizes good spinal alignment, and use the abdominal contraction to maintain that position. About the transition to updog-it is very difficult, if you do it well, and extraordinarily easy if you do it badly. I would say that both technique and strength are key-one will affect the other, so you don't get gains as a result of either one, but more as a sum of the two factors. Nick Nick, I don't understand This is exactly what I'm being told to do. How to engage the uddiyana bandha without pulling the lower belly in? To be honest, I'm very confused about proper technique, I'm doing ashtanga teacher treaning and getting different information from different course teachers... also, regarding the sun salutations, i find it very difficult to keep the proper distance between the hands and the feet, namely, if i jump back to a distance where transition from chaturanga to updog is comfortable, it turns out to be far too big for downdog and/or warrior. on the other hand, if i shorten that distance, transition to updog is nearly impossible. is it a matter of technique or strenght? | ||
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| riftweaver |
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| It so often comes down to positioning the pelvis, doesn't it? I just got a book called "Pelvis Power" which seems promising, I'm going to work through it and see how it helps with yoga. This is a great segue into a current problem I'm struggling with. I've become aware of two things in my sun salutes. (I am beginning to really understand why they say the sun salutes hold the foundation of everything else in the practice!) 1. I suspect I am not tilting the pelvis enough. My solution to work on sticking the tailbone in the air (or at least imagining it!) and lifting the butt up. I get more of a stretch in my legs this way, so I guess that's right. 2. I've picked up a bending habit: I tend to press my knees (and I suppose thighs) together during the forward bends. This lets me bend a little deeper, and it must feel safer to my SI and/or lower back. But I don't think it's the correct action. Any tips on this one? I am trying to bend while keeping space between my thighs, but I'm finding it quite difficult. Oh, and I like the idea of a blog from Nick. I would even help with getting it set up at one of the free blogging services! --Jason Edited by riftweaver 2007-03-02 10:34 AM | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jason, The pelvic tilt you describe is called an anterior tilt-I'm hoping that you are using it in the forward bend (uttanasana), in downdog, and in preparing to lift back and forwards. Yes, it sounds like the action of pressing the thighs together isn't quite right. When I perform uddiyana and moola bandha, their effect is different depending on which posture or movement I am creating. But if I'm sitting on the floor, with my legs straight, they have the effect of pulling my pelvis forwards over the floor-I will feel my abdominal muscles brace as I get pulled forwards. This in itself shows why it is so difficult to maintain good posture when you are sitting-the tendency is to always rock back, so the anterior suprior iliac spine on the front of the pelvic brim is behind and above the pubic bone. This has the effect of creating slack in the hamstrings, so that they contract, and then you are in a position of having permanently tight hamstrings. A vicious circle. I think probably the most effective teaching tool I have for this is to take hold of my student's shins, pull on them to align the legs and pull on the sitting bones (to which the hamstrings are connected), and then ask the student to use the legs to pull themselves towards me. They should feel as though they have moved on to the anterior part of their sit bones, and moreover, will feel the abdominal muscles brace. I should mention that it is very important to get the spine in neutral with an neutral pelvic tilt (i.e. the pelvis is not upright) before I pull on the legs, although me just pullling on the legs is often enough to get most people's bandha working (panic, probably). The trick is to learn to get the same action when you do forward bends. With the backs of the heels on the floor, try pulling your self forwards. A good by-product is that knee hyper-extension does not occur, which is a frequent occurrence in people who just lift their kneecaps to straighten the leg. Rather, the heel is pressed into the ground. As this happens, you should feel that the sit bones are not so heavy on the floor, and as they lift a bit, so your pelvis can go into more anterior tilt, so the hamstrings get further stretch, the low spine is close to neutral, and you have locked the sacro-iliac joint up a bit, so it is stable. I can't begin to describe how much this helps forward bends, particularly in postures such as upavistha konasana-because the feet are wide it seems that pulling on them creates the strongest effects, probably because gluteus maximus is being used to abduct and rotate the hip joint, which then picks up the sacrum and spine as well. If you get two people to pull on your ankles in that one, make sure you trust them, but it really is an incredible way of understanding this difficult forward bend. When you do bandha, it should have the effect of lifting you slightly, so that it is as though you have been sitting down, but just at the instant where your bum leaves the seat. Nick ps I have been thinking about a blog of some kind, or a forum where astangi's could chew the cud. We'll see | ||
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| pippin |
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| Thank you Nick, very helpful Neda | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neda, I hope that as you were confused, now you are not I would like to remove confusion by presenting the truth, so that the style of bandha used is not a product of our imagination, but is a tool for health. Nick | ||
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| OrangeMat |
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| riftweaver |
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Nick - 2007-03-02 10:17 AM The deepest abdominal muscle is called Tranversus abdominus (TrA). ... I think one of the reasons it has become so popular to draw the navel back towards the spine is because of the reason I gave in the last post, and also because TrA has been heavily investigated as a means of rehabilitating pack pain patients. ... All well and good, but the fact is that practically every muscle in the human body is probably altered by pain, so it may be that the current emphasis on TrA is mis-founded (and I do think there is too much emphasis on this muscle in Pilates and yoga). I came across this article at lime.com this morning, which reminded me of this topic. The article talks about core muscle use, and particularly the TrA in Pilates, and how some people are beginning to say that the way people perform is not actually beneficial for the back. Nick, this sounds suspiciously like some of the things you've posted on this forum! An excerpt: Crucially, participants are taught how to target a muscle called the transversus abdominus, positioned deep in the abdominal area. This they do by drawing in their navel to the spine and lifting the pelvic floor. But according to Stuart McGill, a professor of spine biomechanics and chair of the kinesiology department at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, it is this concept of "drawing in" that is the problem. He and his colleagues have found that strengthening this "core" muscle often worsens back pain. It's generally assumed that when you pull in this muscle, the torso temporarily acts like a corset, protecting the lower back, and that if the muscle is used often enough, it will eventually work on its own. But by measuring how different loads and forces affect the way the spine functions, McGill found that the transversus abdominus muscle does not play as pivotal a role in protecting the back as was once thought. "If you hollow in, you bring the muscles closer to the spine and you reduce the stability of the back," McGill says. "Try rising from a chair with a hollowed-out stomach. Not only are you weak, it is very difficult." And yes, the article mentions yoga. --Jason | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jason, Yes, I have followed mcGill's work closely-to put it bluntly, I think that we have been fed a ton of manure with the way bandha are taught in the yoga world, and McGill seems to feel the same way, although I believe his concern is with the way TrA has been used in the physio world-I'm sure if someone pointed out how bandhas are taught, he would come down on it like a ton of bricks. You'll notice I usually weigh in when the subject of bandhas comes up, I'm trying to turn the tide so that common sense begins to prevail-I've been at it for about a decade now, without making any in-roads Nick | ||
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| TampaEric |
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| riftweaver |
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| I'm starting to get confused, about the discussed differences between cultivating stillness around the navel vs. bracing at the same area.... I might have the correct action here, but now I'm starting to wonder! Everyone seems to have a different way of describing what should be the same action. Maybe I'll just go back to trying to perform my asanas with awareness of these areas and see what develops, rather than trying to "force"bandhas. Sigh. Edited by riftweaver 2007-03-07 2:07 PM | |||
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