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 lifting.Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
SCThornley |
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| Nick |
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    Location: London, England | Hi Steve, You really know how to attract my attention  Well, I don't know about flying, but let's work on starting those engines and taxiing down the runway ! I think what doesn't do students any favours is the sight of a small, light, yoga teacher winding their skinny legs through their long arms. I have to go teach a class now, will go through the rules of vinyasa with you later on if you like. But you will probably have to adapt the technique-whilst we are on the plane analogy, you cannot use the engine off a light aircraft to power a jumbo jet-it will probably be necesssary to re-design the means with which you launch into the next posture. Just to get us going-when you see an athlete running, it's like poetry in motion-one movement leads into the next-but when people attempt vinyasa, it's like each posture actually makes the next one harder to accomplish-the secret is to try to develop a technique where the postures lead onto the next one, otherwise it's like Carl Lewis taking one step back for every stride forwards. Will go into this in more detail later, chocs away (British wartime expression ) Nick | ||
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| SCThornley |
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| SCThornley |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steve, Hee hee, I'll do my best. Will probably take a few posts, have to go out in a little bit, but hopefully, this thread will mature like a fine wine This isn't the best medium to do this in, pictures make a lot of difference, but let's give it a go. If you come to my classes or look back through the posts, you will find that I talk about pulling into postures a lot, using the legs and arms-because yoga is a whole body activity, this helps to promote the bandha-the muscles of the legs interdigitate with the muscles of the core, as do the muscles of the arms-look at how the fibres of pectoralis major are in the same vector as the oblique abdominals-very important, as the pecs will lift the torso through the arms in the vinyasa. But the trouble is, when you cross your legs and bring them towards the front of your body as you swing back, the forces push your spine into flexion-so the opportuntiy to use bandha and the pecs is partially lost-if they do contract, they cannot achieve anything like the same power as when the spine is held with better alignment. So, the first thing is, when you cross your legs, use the bandha to help your spine meet the forces that are created-in this sense, even this part of the vinyasa is a way of developing bandha-use your core to meet the demands imposed by the movement. The above action will also mean that you are not pushed onto the back of your sit bones, which flexes your hips, but you can keep a more neutral posture-as the succeeding movement demands the ability to extend the pelvis, this means that you are creating a better start for the movement. Whilst we are looking at vinyasa from this aspect, the movement of the pelvis can also then influence the movement of the legs-if you allow the pelvis to flex, the legs and feet are pushed forwards-if you can keep the pelvis closer to neutral, you are effectively able to pull your legs and feet closer to the front of your torso-because the spine is being held closer to neutral, this means that each time you cross your legs, you will be improving the dynamic flexibility of your hips-fantastic! I usually tell my students to keep their arms straight as they begin to lift-you would be surprised how many people (99%) bend their elbows at the exact moment that they take their weight onto their hands. This may help in developing strong triceps, but try holding your elbows straight-you will instantly feel the abdominal muscles brace as they help to pick the pelvis up. This next bit is the most important thing-it may take a while to sink in, and I would recommend trying it in different postures. When you put your hands on the ground, the natural inclination is to push down-so basically, the lift is basically a press-up variation. Now, due to a mixture of things, this works for some people, but not for most. As people push down, the spine often rounds, and the shoulders lift, and the vinyasa then fails. So what to do? Pull When you put the hands down, pull on them-the sticky mat will keep them where they are, and you will be pulled towards them (remember to keep the elbows straight). At this point you will experience great bandha The pulling towards the hands also affects the way the legs are crossed, so that the feet are pulled more closely to the pelvis-when people push with the hands, you can see the feet being pushed away from the pelvis. If there is one thing that would change astanga yoga, it is pulling on the hands, rather than pushing-pushing creates a potential for various sites around the body being compressed-wrists and spine mainly. I use this in the sun salute and in handstands, scorpion, headstand-everything benefits. You will notice that when you pull on the arms, the torso get pulled straight-excellent-you will also see the pectoralis and abdominals brace-excellent-as the abs brace they pull on the adductors and sartorius to pull the legs closer to the body-brilliant. Lastly, for now, analysze your breathing-the point where your breath is weak, will also be the stumbling block in the movement-try to make this point where your breath is at its most powerful. I do not believe that everyone is genetically endowed to achieve lifting the feet through without touching the floor. In order to find out, another person takes hold of your legs, lifts you and pulls you through-if the feet still touch the floor in this passive lift, then it is highly unlikely that you will ever perform an active lift-although, over time, perhaps injuries and weaknesses may be made apparent, and once rehabilitated, you may be able to lift. The important thing is to learn this pulling action-it makes the rendition of the movement much more likely to have a training effect, rather than the vinyasa being an opportunity for injuring yourself through your yoga practice. It also means that even if your feet do touch the floor, it's no big deal-in fact, because the floor provides resistance to you pulling the feet through, you could say it's a good thing to let your feet touch the floor-it makes you stronger-so you may not be flying, but you have a well-built land vehicle which can traverse difficult environments-a land-rover, rather than a Robin Reliant (do you remember those? ). I've got about 150 pages of A4 on vinyasa for my book, so you will appreciate that there is a lot of useful information on the vinyasa in terms of anatomy (I'll pare it down eventually), I will try to dig out the most useful bits for this, give me a few days. Oh, by the way, just to help convince you to try it-when you pull on the hands, notice how the hand presses on the floor-often when people push, there is too much force concentrated on the extended wrist-leading to more injuries and a less advanced movement-it's like trying to balance on tip-toes rather than feet flat on the floor. Hope that little lot helps to get you started, like I said, best to practice pulling a lot (notice that the latest trendy equipment in gyms are cable pulleys with weights) in the other asana-sun salutes mainly-it also helps to put a new perspective on the various postures. Take care Nick | ||
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| slowpie6 |
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Hi all, I happened to be coming to ask about vinyasas as well, and it just so happens that this thread is here, good timing. I'm not lifting yet, that's for sure, but I am trying very hard. I will try the hand pulling action tomorrow and see what comes of it, at first reading it sounds like it makes sense at least,  . My own issue pertains more to the vinyasa out movements from different poses in the primary series. In most cases, it's the basic cross-legged lift up and then plant the hands in front of the feet and push off them. I think I am perhaps pushing off on my ankles because I am starting to feel a bit of ache on the outside ankle area. I'm not sure if it is being caused by vinyasa or because I am working so hard to lift my arches these days - my ankles have been cracking a lot as if the bones are readjusting their placement and trying to find a new position with my foot trying to form an arch. But either way, considering the ankle soreness, should I try to flex my feet or something like that to protect my ankle until I learn to fly out of my poses? Other vinyasa out moves that I am concerned about, such as the transition out of Marichyasana, or Tiryang mukha eka pada paschimottanasana, I keep trying very hard, but cannot successfully get my butt up high enough to keep my straight leg off the ground... And from Bhujapidasana or supta kurmasana, I manage to go into Thittibhasana and then almost make it into bakasana, but typically end up folding my legs too early and losing my grip. All this to say, I'm trying hard, trying even harder not to get frustrated every time I fail. My question here is, should I even be trying? Is the mere *attempt* to do these vinyasas working to develop the strength needed to do them, or should I skip trying these moves and try them again in the future to see if I can do it then? Are there any particular asanas that I can practice that will help develop the core strength needed to do these vinyasas properly, or is trying to do the vinyasas the best way to learn? Thanks! sp Edited by slowpie6 2007-02-14 12:03 PM | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | slowpie6 - 2007-02-14 4:58 PM Hi all, I happened to be coming to ask about vinyasas as well, and it just so happens that this thread is here, good timing. I'm not lifting yet, that's for sure, but I am trying very hard. I will try the hand pulling action tomorrow and see what comes of it, at first reading it sounds like it makes sense at least, . "I think I am perhaps pushing off on my ankles because I am starting to feel a bit of ache on the outside ankle area. I'm not sure if it is being caused by vinyasa or because I am working so hard to lift my arches these days - my ankles have been cracking a lot as if the bones are readjusting their placement and trying to find a new position with my foot trying to form an arch. But either way, considering the ankle soreness, should I try to flex my feet or something like that to protect my ankle until I learn to fly out of my poses? " Hi SP, I knew there was something I forgot to mention. The thing about pulling, it has many effects-and foot position is one of them. Part of the reason I use the technique is because of the rehabilitative effects on the foot and ankle. A very common mistake that people make is to supinate the feet, resulting in a lateral pressure on the foot and ankle which is almost designed to injure-like if you are running and turn your ankle-it's strange that this action has become almost universal in the execution of astanga yoga-I would also say that the effects on the knee and sacro-iliac joints are not good. The human body was designed to propel itself across the earth by planting the plantar aspect of the foot on the floor-many neurological conditions result in a compromised ability to do this, and again, therefore, it's strange and unfortunate that this faulty positioning is used to lift through. Try this-it will be very difficult at first, but I think that if your ankles are being strained by vinyasa, then this will fix it. Instead of supinating your foot, partially pronate it-pull the front of the foot towards the front of the shin, and point the toes out sideways-to to this, you will develop active flexibility in the hip (external rotation) and engage the knee in external rotation and flexion. Notice that now all the joints of the leg are externally rotated-when people supinate instead, the tibia rotates inwards as the hip joint is externally rotated-then, when the weight is borne on the feet, the knee is being rotated externally from above, and internally from below-disaster beckons. You should find that modifying the foot action encourages you to lift the feet and knees higher, which is also good-when you think about it, pointing the foot lengthens the leg-and you basically want your legs as short as possible. The whole external rotation idea is really accentuated by bandha-rather than just sitting down and letting your butt spread out on the floor, the bandha are pulling the sitting bones together. This gives an opportunity to use the gluteal muscles effectively to pull the hip into external rotation. As the glutes engage, they cross the SI joint and merge with the fibres of the contralateral (opposite side) latissimus dorsi, which then attaches to the arm-this really promotes the ability to lift off the floor, creating a sling across the back to compliment the sling on the front created by the abdominals and contralateral pectoralis major. I'd like to answer your questions about other transitions in another thread, what you are asking is worth a couple of years discussion in it's own right-although I would say that this thread will enhance your ability in the other transitions too, at least I think it will Take care Nick | ||
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| slowpie6 |
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| slowpie6 |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | slowpie6 - 2007-02-14 6:48 PM Oh, one more thing, should I try to land with this sort of foot placement too? As it stands, I'm nowhere near being able to pass through my arms straight legged and so I am also landing in a cross-legged position. Thankfully, I usually manage to brake my landing and sort of hold my weight up so that I can place the feet down softly without having my ankles cushion the landing, which I guess I could describe as an early phase sort of floating motion... It's not graceful, but I don't come down with a thud... yet I do put my feet down on the ankles, so should I try something different there as well? ABSOLUTELY! Nick | ||
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| slowpie6 |
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| slowpie6 |
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| OrangeMat |
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No worries
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| SCThornley |
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| Fabulous, I will try to pull instead of push and see what that does for me. Thank you, sir | |||
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| DownwardDog |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi SP, Let's have a look at this, like you say, it's difficult to apply push/pull through various postures: "The pulling action as I understand it is therefore the reverse, as in activating the arms to pull them into my body by flexing the forearms and bringing the shoulder blades closer together. So thinking about this and applying it to a position like downward dog and the transition of lifting towards standing forward bend or dandasana or whatever else doesn't make much sense to me." In fact, I cannot think of many yoga postures that are not improved therapeutically by pulling the shoulder blades inwards and downwards. Even yoga postures like downward dog are improved by attempting to draw the shoulder blades in and down-the anatomical description is medial rotation, retraction, and depression. It is when this attempt is not made that you will usually see the upper trapezius bunch up as they assist in pulling the shoulder blade into lateral rotation, protraction, and elevation. "Here's what does make sense to me: we are usually instructed to press firmly on the hands at the moment that we begin the inhale, look to the hands and lift off to jump forward. When we are told to press, instead of that pressure being directed forward, in an action that would result in pushing the hands and feet apart if we were wearing slippery socks and using not sticky mat (or, picturing this in a standing position, your arms would raise higher overhead...), "this pressure should be directed towards the feet, sort of like pulling the arms down towards the torso" This is a bit confusing, because you are told to pull, but you are also interpreting it as a push-but as you say, it is actually a pull-perhaps it's a question of language. If we analyze the whole vinyasa, and we could go further into the transitions (you start that thread-ladies first ), you have started by pulling on the arms to pull yourself through, or to lift back. The next posture is chaturanga dandasana-the press-up position (a 'push'): but if you pull on the hands, this pulls the elbows back (not necessarily right back-depends on your design), and encourages the above movement of the shoulder blade, and a corresponding lengthening of the spine, so that the spine is basically being pulled in a direction parallel to the floor-perfect for the next posture, urdvha dhanurasana. The upward dog is made much more benficial and advanced, as the feet get pulled closer to the hands and forcing you to try to extend the hips and thoracic spine-if you don't, then the lumbar spine and cervical spine may hyper-extend, and the shoulders get pushed forwards over the wrists. When you get into urdvha dhanurasana, check what your hands feel like-is it a push, or is there a strong element of 'pull back' felt? A push will result in no further advance because a more advanced updog involves more shoulder extension, and pushing, as you have said, will flex the shoulder. Now, from updog to downdog, if you can keep that pull, it should mean a much better, if somewhat different, downdog. It also means that in performing downdog, you are already preparing for the lift forwards, using your whole body, rather than pushing back with your torso in downdog, and then jumping forwards using your legs, you have primed the movement with a posture that encourages a whole body action-bandha should be much more visible in their contribution. So this is what I was saying to Steve at the beginning-try to ake it so one posture primes you for the correct movement into the next posture. When I practice like this, I do not have to think of creating bandha, they occur spontaneously, in reaction to the demands of the posture or movement-once again, I'll quote this maxim: "appropiate activation of the appropiate muscle at the appropiate time." By using the pulling action, you are organizing the yoga practice by organizing posture or movement, rather than by organizing muscle activity, which can never be successful. Phew!! Hope that helps Nick | ||
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| jonnie |
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie, Hehe, wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the book-it'll be the longest khumbaka ever Nick | ||
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| jonnie |
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| Hi nick, Thanks for the tip. I've started breathing again. Jonathon | |||
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