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 Back bends and bandasModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 3 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
OrangeMat |
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Nick - 2007-03-19 5:20 PM Hi Om, You have wrist problems (my speciality-I'm salivating  ). If i was a dog I'd be straining at the leash NickJust the reacting I always hope to encourage. "Wrist problems", is that the technical term? Would you care to elaborate? I've been called double-jointed, especially in my left wrist, since that's the one that when I bend it palm-side fingers to back of forearm, it pops rather loudly (sometimes a double pop) and the angle comes to about 45 degrees. Doesn't always pop, but when it pops, man, it POPS. But anyway, I've never exactly known what double-jointed means, nor did I care to, since I wasn't ever troubled by it. But please, do explain away! | |||
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| Nick |
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    Location: London, England | OrangeMat - 2007-03-20 10:38 PM Nick - 2007-03-19 5:20 PM Hi Om, You have wrist problems (my speciality-I'm salivating ). If i was a dog I'd be straining at the leash NickJust the reacting I always hope to encourage. "Wrist problems", is that the technical term? Would you care to elaborate? I've been called double-jointed, especially in my left wrist, since that's the one that when I bend it palm-side fingers to back of forearm, it pops rather loudly (sometimes a double pop) and the angle comes to about 45 degrees. Doesn't always pop, but when it pops, man, it POPS. But anyway, I've never exactly known what double-jointed means, nor did I care to, since I wasn't ever troubled by it. But please, do explain away! Hi Om, Popping is not a symptom of hypermobility. Hypermobility is a condition that is usually body-wide, with some joints actually becoming hypomobile. In the wrist it is considered a normal range of motion to be able to bend to 85 degrees either into extension or flexion-that is, just short of a right angle to the forearm. So is the 45 degree angle between the forearm and the palm of the hand, or between the back of the hand and where it would be if the wrist was neutral? If it's the first, you are slightly more mobile in the wrist, but not by much-if you could touch you fingers to your forearm, that would be hypermobile, or if you can get them close-same goes for extension. Hypermobile people can usually touch the thumb to the forearm when it is bent back as well. In teaching astanga yoga you inevietably deal with weak wrists quite a lot. People just are not prepared physically to bear their body weight on their arms. Many forms of exercise, such as cardiovascular, use the legs to perform the exercise, because the large muscle mass means the heart has to pump harder-if you try using an ergometer using the arms, you just don't put the same stress on the heart. In my perfect world, students would go through several weeks or months of bodyweight exercises to prepare for astanga yoga-press-ups, pull-ups, dips, leg-raises hanging off a pull-up bar, one arm press ups, etc. Get those wrists strong! I told Tiffany on another thread to try using something called the Powerball-you can get them on-line, saw one site in England that was selling them for only $16. Probably one of the most ingenious exercise inventions I've ever seen. Have you ever fallen on that wrist? maybe get a chiro/osteo to see if it needs adjusting. Once they pop it, you may not be able to pop it yourself-but popping isn't necessarily a symptom of anything at all, i.e. many people pop their whole lives without developing any pathology in the site at all. But just in case, strengthen those wrists. Pull up bars are good because you squeeze the bar with the wrist in a neutral position, or close to it, and your wrist is compressed by the muscles which cross it, and de-compressed by the weight of your body. The problems for the wrists in astanga yoga come when the wrist is compressed by the body weight and the wrist muscles cannot control the joint position. Take care Nick | ||
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| OrangeMat |
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| TampaEric |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| iandicker |
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| kulkarnn |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | "That was the main thrust of my question. I'm getting better, (I know, it all comes with practice)but I still get distracted by my hands slipping in the pose. I'm also interested in your opinions of building up core strength before you go on to backbends, which is as I understand the reason that there are so few backbends in the primary series and lots more in the intermediate." Hi Ian, As you know, I don't agree with some of the held tenets of astanga yoga, and filling the first series with forward bends is one of the tenets I cannot agree with-on anatomical and physiological principles. As for the second series, the backbends are both too easy and too advanced-salabhasana and ustrasana being fairly easy, and kapotasana, vajrasana and scorpion being extraordinarily advanced. For someone who's only preparation has been the first series, this is a big jump. I vary the postures after the standing poses so that my students get pulled in all directions. The only reason I can think of in doing mostly forward bends is that they are easier than backbends for most people-so they can perform them better, and learn the same attention to good posture that they will need in backbends. In both, the aim should be optimal alignment of the spine, so that the forces created by posture and movement do not exert excessive shear force or compression force on each vertebral segment. This is why core training is vital. It is like tightening the nuts and bolts on your bike, so that cycling is made easier, and also results in less wear and tear on both you and your machine. In gaining optimal spinal alignment, the muscles of the hips and shoulders also optimize their function. As a typical example, in paschimottananana, if the hips are not flexed as much as they could be, the hamstrings get less stretch, the lumbar curve is completely lost, the thoracic curvature is increased, and then, to cap it all, when you pull on your feet, the shoulders become rounded and your head gets pulled to the floor. This is very wrong. But by learning to engage the core, the rib cage is locked to the pelvis-so that when you take the posture, greater hip flexion is achieved, the hamstrings are stretched, the shoulder blades are pulled in and down the rib cage, the head gets pulled into an alignment that optimizes the spinal alignment, and so on. The same thing happens in backbends. because the abdominal muscles form a matrix across the abdominal wall (front and sides), they have the ability to pull the hips into extension as the spine is extended and the rib cage lifts. This means that the harder the backbend, the stronger the bandha will have to be to keep to the rules-this is a good thing-it shows if you are ready to do a posture-if you cannot maintain the bandha-forget it. The same goes for vinyasa (all movements between all postures). What are good postures to add on to a first series? The first that spring to mind are upward dog, obviously, cobra, urdvha dhaurasana, camel, crescent moon, some funky hip flexor stretches and quad stretches to isolate tight leg and hip muscles, so that yoga postures can then be designed to stretch specific muscles, and you know you are getting it right when you can feel these muscles being affected. I know you are going to ask what these exercises are, but I'll hang on in case you already know And also, learning how to grab hold of the foot with an overarm grasp, which is how all the major backbends end up-I use a belt to make up for lack of hip and shoulder mobility, and just make it shorter as the student improves. nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| riftweaver |
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| "The more I learn, the less I know." Very true! Fortunately, I enjoy learning. --Jason | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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Crescent moon as a backbend, could that be crescent lunge, or anjaneyasana?
As for funky quad stretches, we do one that I absolutely love (in a totally self-loathing way though Edited by OrangeMat 2007-03-21 2:52 PM | |||
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| TampaEric |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian, You don't know the meaning of the word 'sorry,' I haven't even begun to expound the virtues of hip flexor stretching-do another thread and I'll see you there (anatomy books at dawn ). If I was to do a progression of asana, and I would say that the progression should probably alter itself for each person and each day (it's not written in stone), I would say, crescent moon, cobra, ustrasana, the splits, supta virasana, urdvha dhanurasana, scorpion, handstands etc. But that's just me-identify your tight bits and work on those in the beginning backbends, and make the beginning backbends ones that stretch those tight bits. Cresent moon, is like first warrior pose, but with the back kneecap on the floor. Because the back knee is in this position, it is possible to get much more stretch on the rectus femoris and hip flexors than it is with first warrior. This is because the hips are extending more-in crescent moon, the arms are drawn back towards the wall behind you, rather than up towards the ceiling as with first warrior. My advice is, if you really want to learn to backbend, postures like cresent moon are the most valuable, because the pelvic position is much easier to attain than when you are lying down, either on your back, or on your front. I'm not saying it isn't easy to make mistakes-typicall, ofr instance, you will see the front hip flex, resulting in pinching between the brim of the pelvis and the front of the thigh. The objective should be to get as much space as possible in this area. If this doesn't happen, then the available stretch for the psoas/rectus femoris is lost-no two ways about it, total failure. Also, the lumbar spine and sacro-iliac joints are de-stabilized, with more incidence of pain or injury. For this reason, learn to make extending the hips a principle part of your backbends by practicing it in postures like warrior pose and crescent moon, and then use this as a learning device to learn most backbends successfully. You will be able to tell if the posture is going to be good for you or not if the way you practice it seems to extend the hips. Learning hip extension is very tricky-most people over-do or under-do the action, resulting either in a loss of back position or a loss of stretch on the target muscles. Hope that helps, I can see there's lots of dry bits, give us a shout if it is not clear. Nick | ||
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| Hehet |
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| i would love to try this stretch for my quads, but I keep getting lost during your explanation. I can't visualise exactly what you mean. Is it possible for you to take a pic so I can see what you're getting at? thanks  OrangeMat - 2007-03-21 2:35 PM Crescent moon as a backbend, could that be crescent lunge, or anjaneyasana?
As for funky quad stretches, we do one that I absolutely love (in a totally self-loathing way though | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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I'm not good with the self-photo thing, sorry. I did find another picture that's close to what I'm describing, but as I was starting to type up the description, it just hit me: it's pretty much Supta Ardha Virasana (aka Eka Pada Supta Virasana), except you're not on the floor, you're upright against a wall in a short lunge:
Edited by OrangeMat 2007-03-23 1:45 PM | |||
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| Hehet |
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| OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH! I understand completely now. thanks! OrangeMat - 2007-03-23 1:42 PM I'm not good with the self-photo thing, sorry. I did find another picture that's close to what I'm describing, but as I was starting to type up the description, it just hit me: it's pretty much Supta Ardha Virasana (aka Eka Pada Supta Virasana), except you're not on the floor, you're upright against a wall in a short lunge:
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| kulkarnn |
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| OrangeMat |
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kulkarnn - 2007-03-23 2:07 PM dear OM: R U trying to answer my question 'which backbends and which bandhas are considered here in the original post'? I like your picture. Hi Neel, No, unfortunately, I was only answering the poster who inquired about "funky quad stretches" that someone had referred to earlier in the thread. I don't practice Astanga style, so I really do not know much about bandhas in that respect. The only experience I have with them is in pranayama and Kundalini. Very different, indeed. I do, however know about backbends, but again, it's the two together that you're asking about, I do understand. Thanks for the compliment on the picture. | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi all, Can anyone see the mistakes, biomechanically and therapeutically, that are being made in the photo above? Which turning moments are being allowed at which joints that might lead to damage of the lumbar spine, plus a decrease in the ability to stretch the shoulders and pelvis? There you go, I've partially answered my own question But there's more subtle things at work. Maybe we should do this on a regular basis-a new pose each week-what are the effects when it performed at a reduced state of awareness of optimal posture, and what are the effects when it is done with otpimal posture? Nick | ||
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| Hehet |
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| I can't really see the mistakes, Nick, if you're talking about the photos of the women in blue pants Could you elucidate? and if we do this every week, i'd like to see Baddha Konasana done Nick - 2007-03-23 4:25 PMHi all,Can anyone see the mistakes, biomechanically and therapeutically, that are being made in the photo above? Which turning moments are being allowed at which joints that might lead to damage of the lumbar spine, plus a decrease in the ability to stretch the shoulders and pelvis? There you go, I've partially answered my own question But there's more subtle things at work.Maybe we should do this on a regular basis-a new pose each week-what are the effects when it performed at a reduced state of awareness of optimal posture, and what are the effects when it is done with otpimal posture?Nick | |||
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| TampaEric |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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| Interesting exercise. Though maybe rather than just pointing what is wrong, suggestions can be made for what to do that will correct the pose. Such as with the observation that the "hands are abducted" -- layperson's terms is the hands are touching, yes? I would suggest beginning the pose with the arms in "cactus arms" position, or goalpost arms, whatever you'd like to call it, palms facing forward, elbows tilted slightly up in the same direction as the heart is moving. This brings the shoulders down and back into the back. Once the backbend of the pose is established (yes, with the proper tucking of the tailbone and the thighs pressing toward the midline of the body), extend the arms back and lengthen the neck to open the throat as well. | |||
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