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Parivritta Parsvakonasana
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iandicker
Posted 2007-03-27 9:18 AM (#81374)
Subject: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Can't wait, I took the pic this morning, so I'd like to get your comments on this posture and my attempt at it.

Looking at the photo, I think I have a problem with my back foot again. Might that stop me getting my hand flat to the floor? The 12 sec rule also applies to this shot, though I think it's reasonably representative, I was well warmed up by this time.

Don't worry, I won't inflict any more pics of my pasty body on you guys for a while, we're off on hols for a week.

Ian

Edited by iandicker 2007-03-27 9:25 AM




(Ashtanga March 29th 005.jpg)



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Hehet
Posted 2007-03-27 12:33 PM (#81442 - in reply to #81374)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


i'm no Nick   but i too was wondering about the action in your back foot.  It seems as if you're rolling in on your instep?  
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Hehet
Posted 2007-03-27 12:47 PM (#81447 - in reply to #81374)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


i'm no teacher, so i've no authority on which to speak
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jonnie
Posted 2007-03-27 12:49 PM (#81448 - in reply to #81374)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Hi Ian,

Yes, you need much more work on that back leg. Push down with the outer edge of the back foot to ensure that it is grounded while maintaining pressure/contact with the ground with the ball of the big toe. Notice how the lifting of your back foot has also caused the back leg to clapse slightly. Over time this can lead to quite serious knee issues if left unchecked. You may want to widen the legs/feet a little as well.

Personally, I recommend working with a block under the supporting hand so you may focus on the above points and the leveling of the hips as you twist.

Jonathon
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Nick
Posted 2007-03-27 1:22 PM (#81453 - in reply to #81374)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Ian,
Overall, that's actually not bad. Like you and Jonnie said, the back foot is not good-the same happened in pavritta trikonasana, but not as much. In fact, because the postures are so similiar, you can use them to understand each other.
I think if you feet were further apart, you would find that your hand would be closer to the floor, assuming you flex your knee more. You know i was going on about tightening the feet? in bent leg postures such as this, the effect is to pull the knee over the foot, which draws your thigh parallel with the floor-this will also help get the hand closer. I think that you are supporting yourslef with that front leg, so the effect is to jack you up away from the floor. You will also find that pulling yourself into the posture using the front leg tightens your body up, like pulling on one end of a piece of string which is attached to something at the other end. This means that you are also more stable, and this posture is a hard balance.
As in revolved triangle, you are looking at your hand by extedning your neck-try to replace this with as much rotation as you can, and then look at the hand of where it is pointing to. so there is extension, but as little as possible. the muscles in the neck send messages to the rest of the body, so that the body revolves to whatever you are looking at. So do the eyes. Use this fact to inhibit the muscles that you want to stretch, and to contract the muscles that will refine the posture.
Enjoy your holiday, your body isn't paty, it's just got a very English hue

Nick
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iandicker
Posted 2007-03-27 3:11 PM (#81461 - in reply to #81453)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Thanks all. I'll work on all the advice over the next week or so. Should be able to come back with some "after" pics hopefully!

Actually, my body IS pasty. Won't get any better in the Scottsh Highlands either. All comes of having a Canadian wife who pines for the trees and mountains!

Thanks again,

Ian
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Hehet
Posted 2007-03-27 4:29 PM (#81464 - in reply to #81461)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


there are trees and mountains in Jamaica

ian****er - 2007-03-27 3:11 PMThanks all. I'll work on all the advice over the next week or so. Should be able to come back with some "after" pics hopefully!Actually, my body IS pasty. Won't get any better in the Scottsh Highlands either. All comes of having a Canadian wife who pines for the trees and mountains!Thanks again,Ian
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iandicker
Posted 2007-03-28 3:25 AM (#81500 - in reply to #81453)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Is that an invite? I'd love to come and watch the world cup cricket!

Seriously thanks to Nick for the advice. The foot thing really helped and together with moving my feet further apart and internally rotating my leg, I feel I've improved already. The proof will be in the photos I guess, but in the meantime it's also helped with the non-rotated poses too and I think warrior was better as well.

One bit I don't really understand:

"As in revolved triangle, you are looking at your hand by extending your neck-try to replace this with as much rotation as you can, and then look at the hand of where it is pointing to. so there is extension, but as little as possible. the muscles in the neck send messages to the rest of the body, so that the body revolves to whatever you are looking at. So do the eyes. Use this fact to inhibit the muscles that you want to stretch, and to contract the muscles that will refine the posture."

Can you explain this a bit more please Nick?

Ian


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Nick
Posted 2007-03-28 7:03 AM (#81507 - in reply to #81500)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Ian,
My pleasure.

"One bit I don't really understand:

"As in revolved triangle, you are looking at your hand by extending your neck-try to replace this with as much rotation as you can, and then look at the hand of where it is pointing to. so there is extension, but as little as possible. the muscles in the neck send messages to the rest of the body, so that the body revolves to whatever you are looking at. So do the eyes. Use this fact to inhibit the muscles that you want to stretch, and to contract the muscles that will refine the posture."

Can you explain this a bit more please Nick?

Ian"
Which bit do you want explaining-the neck movement, or how it affects muscle activation throughout the rest of the body? Or both?

Nick
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iandicker
Posted 2007-03-28 7:40 AM (#81510 - in reply to #81507)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Re-reading it, it seems to make a bit more sense, but I'd like a bit more explanation if you can please.

Should I extend my neck at all?

Which muscles do I want to stretch and which ones should I contract and how does this refine the posture?

I've got google images at the ready to look at all the muscle groups!

Ian
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Nick
Posted 2007-03-28 8:04 AM (#81514 - in reply to #81510)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana



20005001002525
Location: London, England
hi Ian,
Well, if you simply rotated your head and neck, you would be looking up at the ceiling. Do this first and then extend the neck to look to where the hand is pointing. As you do both of these movments, try to use the rest of the body to help out. This is what would happen in a normal posture-when you look over the right shoulder, muscles in the left leg will tighten as your eight gets transferred to that leg, the muslces of the spine will either relax or activate depending on the function of the muscle, etc. There is also something called a head-righting reflex which keeps your eyes level, improving your field of vision. If you drop a cat from a height, holding it upside down, you can see all these reflexes in action as it turn its body to land on its feet. Try it with the neighbour's cat
Talking about muscle stretch is in actuality a bit difficult. Even though the hamstrings are attached to the sitting bone to the tibia, the muscle fibres themselves are arranged in what is called Bipennate form (most muscles exhibit this particular form) Having Bipennate attachment means that you get many more muscle units for a given length of muscle-it's stronger. Think of bipennate as a feather, with the muscle fibres forming the hairs, and the connective tissue being the quill. because of this, when you bend the front knee, the muscle fibres at the lower end will contract, but because you are flexing the hip, the muscle fibres at the top will be inhibited, resulting in stretch of the peri-articular connective tissue that attaches the muscle to the bone.
So in this posture, you will lengthen the hamstrings, but may not feel stretch, unless you are particularly tight.
You will also be lengthening muscles that flex the back leg-the hip flexors and rectus femoris-but only if you use the front leg in the way I was describing. This is a very valuable stretch-these muscles are often very tight. In fact, if you cannot feel lengthening from the brim of the pelvis to the front of the knee, you probably are not getting the full benefit of this pose-again, you may not feel much stretch, but go for lengthening. This will also mean that the spine is free to rotate, with a lumbar spine that is being brought towards neutral. You will spend the rest of your life gaining awareness of this movement, and refining it.
There is also lengthening of the calf muscles of the back leg, gastrocnemius and soleus. probably best not emphasize this too much, but it is there all the same.
A good teaching aid is to get someone to pull on your top arm, and try to use the shoulder muscles to have a tug of war. It's difficult to say which muscles are active in this, because they tend to act in concert-you are using them as climbing muscles, so you tend to get co-activation of several muscle groups at once. It's quite useful to think of astanga as a form of climbing, helps to get good muscle activation.

Nick
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OrangeMat
Posted 2007-03-28 8:04 AM (#81515 - in reply to #81500)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


ian****er - 2007-03-28 3:25 AM One bit I don't really understand: "As in revolved triangle, you are looking at your hand by extending your neck-try to replace this with as much rotation as you can, and then look at the hand of where it is pointing to. so there is extension, but as little as possible. the muscles in the neck send messages to the rest of the body, so that the body revolves to whatever you are looking at. So do the eyes. Use this fact to inhibit the muscles that you want to stretch, and to contract the muscles that will refine the posture." Can you explain this a bit more please Nick? Ian

Just to confirm my understanding of this statement in particular: "Use this fact to inhibit the muscles that you want to stretch, and to contract the muscles that will refine the posture."

I think of this as anchoring with my own strength, then the rotation and stretch emanates from that anchoring point. It's the point from where I anchor that makes all the difference in the pose. The technique we employ in class for a twist such as this (any twist, actually) is to pull back slightly, to draw in, in the direction away from the twist, creating a full back body. This with all the lower body, pelvic stability AND core provides the anchor from which we can lengthen and revolve in a continuing upward spiral, all the way up to the eyes.

For me, at least, I find it most helpful not only to understand WHAT muscle groups are involved in an action, but also HOW to engage, consider, whatever, those muscle groups. The "what" and the "how" are two totally different things, imo. You can understand a body part anatomically and intellectually only so well, but if you can't figure out HOW to have your brain send the right signals to that body part to get it to do what you want it to do, you won't have success. Proprioceptive ability can't just be beaten into someone by saying "do this! do this!" They need to understand the feeling of where the body is in space. That, I believe, is the toughest part in teaching all this, helping to create a sense of body awareness as the goal, rather than just making the appropriate shapes by knowing what parts to use.

Did any of that make any sense?

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iandicker
Posted 2007-03-28 12:00 PM (#81530 - in reply to #81515)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Thanks Nick and OM, I think I've got it now. Hopefully I can remember it all tomorrow morning1

Ian
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TampaEric
Posted 2007-04-02 12:57 PM (#82017 - in reply to #81374)
Subject: RE: Parivritta Parsvakonasana


Ian,

This has probably already been said, but I'm too lazy to read all the posts today.

Draw that right hip back as you take the twist. Charge the knee forward as you press back in the heel.

Eric
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