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| Have you read this?
The Mystery of Consciousness
It's rather long and there are a bunch of related articles on the brain. How this relates to this forum is summed up by something on page 6 of the article:
[...] few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain. For many nonscientists, this is a terrifying prospect. Not only does it strangle the hope that we might survive the death of our bodies, but it also seems to undermine the notion that we are free agents responsible for our choices--not just in this lifetime but also in a life to come.
There is some pretty compelling evidence for their argument. They can simulate near death experiences by activating certain parts of the brain and have observe physiological (mostly electric; which nerves are activated when) activity that correlates to pretty much all mental states even those perceived as mystical. I still cling to the idea that there is more that they don't understand; oneness just feels too real and correct. Follow the link on the left of the main article to the article Time Travel in the Brain for more interesting reading. |
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| thanks for letting us know about this 
the link above doesn't seem to work, maybe some links don't work when you try to post them on this forum...
But if you type "time article consciousness" in google, it should be the first result in the list. (It is for me, but I'm on google.fr by default, I hope it's the same on google.com...) |
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| ankali - 2007-03-28 6:33 AM
thanks for letting us know about this
the link above doesn't seem to work, maybe some links don't work when you try to post them on this forum...
But if you type "time article consciousness" in google, it should be the first result in the list. (It is for me, but I'm on google.fr by default, I hope it's the same on google.com... )
How very strange. The link I used:
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=612106430
was from emailing myself a link from the article. If I click "Edit" on my previous message, it shows that URL in the message. But when it is displayed normally, it substitutes the yoga forum address.
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| This is similar to many Cardiologists who themselves have heart problems. And, many Psychologists who came to me for yoga training to solve their own Pshchological problems.
By activating brain centers of others to create death experience is the stupidest thing a person can do.
If one wants to do research, why not do research on one's own body? Why to use mouse to do research on how a particular drug shall work on humans, etc.?
OM shantiH |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-03-28 8:59 AM
This is similar to many Cardiologists who themselves have heart problems. And, many Psychologists who came to me for yoga training to solve their own Pshchological problems.
By activating brain centers of others to create death experience is the stupidest thing a person can do.
If one wants to do research, why not do research on one's own body? Why to use mouse to do research on how a particular drug shall work on humans, etc.?
OM shantiH
I think they were just trying to figure out cause and effect - they observed activity in certain parts of the brain during near death experiences and then tried stimulating those areas to see if that caused the experiences (and apparantly it did) or if the experience was not a function of the brain and the activity was just a reaction. What they are finding is that it seems like every mental state is a function of the brain. I don't think this definitively disproves existence of spirit but it certainly makes it more abstract (if you believe the results). |
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| OptiMystic - 2007-03-28 11:16 AM
kulkarnn - 2007-03-28 8:59 AM
OM shantiH
What they are finding is that it seems like every mental state is a function of the brain. I don't think this definitively disproves existence of spirit but it certainly makes it more abstract (if you believe the results ).
The fact is that each brain state is a function of the mind, and mind only uses briain for certain functions. Therefore, as far as the functions which can be tested using the brain centers, the mind and brain will be in sink. It looks as if the brain is deciding the mental state. Whereas, it is the other way. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | OptiMystic - 2007-03-28 12:06 AM [...] few scientists doubt that they will locate consciousness in the activity of the brain. For many nonscientists, this is a terrifying prospect. Not only does it strangle the hope that we might survive the death of our bodies, but it also seems to undermine the notion that we are free agents responsible for our choices--not just in this lifetime but also in a life to come. Actually, I would think this would be the other way around. My observation and thinking is that the Scientists themselves are terrified of not being able to locate it. Most of us NON-Scientists are pretty clear that this kind of thing and know it cannot be located and are not too concerned about finding it.  However until karma is exhausted, we are not "free agents", that is true, but we are indeed responsible for our choices...we are bound by karma. However our karma is....whether it be bad, good or indifferent, our "response" to it, is what determines the cause and effect or outcome so to speak. That is how it works, with or without an elaborate explanation...however, all of this is well established and documented. It's in the Vedas. |
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| Hi Andy,
Thanks for the link. Scientists are such reductionists, always looking for the simple component parts with which to explain the whole. This gets confusing when we look at something like consciousness. Consider the state of the body when asleep. We are conscious, but the body is as if dead. The body is not dependent upon sensory information, no eyes seeing, no ears hearing, etc. Further, although our consciousness "travels" in dreams, our feet do not propel us. Although our body is asleep in a certain time and a certain place, the dreaming consciousness is not limited by time or space. This suggests that consciousness does not require the body, but uses it as a garment, perhaps. The evidence of consciousness in dreaming has been suggested as proof of a spirit, or an animating, organizing force beyond our physicality. It's an interesting subject. For me, I find it thrilling to conceive of a life force which may go beyond the confines and limits of materiality.
Michael |
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| dmbones - 2007-03-31 3:37 PM
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the link. Scientists are such reductionists, always looking for the simple component parts with which to explain the whole. This gets confusing when we look at something like consciousness. Consider the state of the body when asleep. We are conscious, but the body is as if dead. The body is not dependent upon sensory information, no eyes seeing, no ears hearing, etc. Further, although our consciousness "travels" in dreams, our feet do not propel us. Although our body is asleep in a certain time and a certain place, the dreaming consciousness is not limited by time or space. This suggests that consciousness does not require the body, but uses it as a garment, perhaps. The evidence of consciousness in dreaming has been suggested as proof of a spirit, or an animating, organizing force beyond our physicality. It's an interesting subject. For me, I find it thrilling to conceive of a life force which may go beyond the confines and limits of materiality.
Michael
I think the point being made in the article is that the brain is required and the brain is part of the body. Dreaming seems to be accomplished by the brain and there is physiological activity there that can be detected. Not only that, it seems that they can detect what areas of the brain are stimulated at what levels in the various states of consciousness and by stimulating the brain in the same manner can cause the same experience. I also feel strongly that there is more there than they know, but I have no evidence other than some experiences that feel to real for me to deny. |
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| OptiMystic - 2007-03-31 8:20 PM
dmbones - 2007-03-31 3:37 PM
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the link. Scientists are such reductionists, always looking for the simple component parts with which to explain the whole. This gets confusing when we look at something like consciousness. Consider the state of the body when asleep. We are conscious, but the body is as if dead. The body is not dependent upon sensory information, no eyes seeing, no ears hearing, etc. Further, although our consciousness "travels" in dreams, our feet do not propel us. Although our body is asleep in a certain time and a certain place, the dreaming consciousness is not limited by time or space. This suggests that consciousness does not require the body, but uses it as a garment, perhaps. The evidence of consciousness in dreaming has been suggested as proof of a spirit, or an animating, organizing force beyond our physicality. It's an interesting subject. For me, I find it thrilling to conceive of a life force which may go beyond the confines and limits of materiality.
Michael
I think the point being made in the article is that the brain is required and the brain is part of the body. Dreaming seems to be accomplished by the brain and there is physiological activity there that can be detected. Not only that, it seems that they can detect what areas of the brain are stimulated at what levels in the various states of consciousness and by stimulating the brain in the same manner can cause the same experience. I also feel strongly that there is more there than they know, but I have no evidence other than some experiences that feel to real for me to deny.
Hi Andy,
Where is the eye that a dream sees through? Or the ear that understands in the dream without hearing?
Where are these senses with which a dream is manifest as consciousness? They aren't the dreamers eyes or ears or organizing capacity - sleeping takes that away. If you check out at the grocer's using the haolgraphic scanner, you can later go back in the memory of the scanner to that same interaction and experience the same thing again. Because the brain can be stimulated to repeat an experience doesn't necessarily mean that the dreamer needs the brain, any more than the scanner's memory is the same as you checking out at the grocers. Maybe the brain is what the material body needs. Maybe the spirit doesn't need the material senses. On the contrary, perhaps the spirit is the animating force of the material body: consciousness itself.
Michael
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| dmbones - 2007-04-01 2:10 AM
Where is the eye that a dream sees through? Or the ear that understands in the dream without hearing?
Where are these senses with which a dream is manifest as consciousness? They aren't the dreamers eyes or ears or organizing capacity - sleeping takes that away. If you check out at the grocer's using the haolgraphic scanner, you can later go back in the memory of the scanner to that same interaction and experience the same thing again. Because the brain can be stimulated to repeat an experience doesn't necessarily mean that the dreamer needs the brain, any more than the scanner's memory is the same as you checking out at the grocers. Maybe the brain is what the material body needs. Maybe the spirit doesn't need the material senses. On the contrary, perhaps the spirit is the animating force of the material body: consciousness itself.
Michael
There is neither light nor sound in a dream, so there is no seeing and no hearing. If I lose my sight, I will still be able to conjure up images in my mind while awake or asleep. That old familar sensation of having a song stuck in your head is not an auditory experience even though you may clearly "hear" it in your mind.
I do believe in the oneness/connectedness of all things, but I don't think dreams are any proof of it. Quite the contrary; they are one of the things that has a very clear brain pattern. they don't understand why we do it or what they mean, but the scientists can tell when we do it by measuring brain waves and what not. |
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| Another analogy occured to me...
It's like watching TV. Whether you are watching a live feed from a camera and microphone or playing back it's the same. Going a step further, the sound and images can be generated on a computer hooked up to the TV and it can still appear as a familiar scene even though it never existed and was never "seen" or "heard". I think that is what they are saying and I agree. But that doesn't mean there isn't a "broadcaster" that they don't know about. |
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| "There is neither light nor sound in a dream, so there is no seeing and no hearing. If I lose my sight, I will still be able to conjure up images in my mind while awake or asleep. That old familar sensation of having a song stuck in your head is not an auditory experience even though you may clearly "hear" it in your mind."
Hi OptiM,
I agree, no light or sound in dreams. Consciousness is non-material, even though we see traces of it in the materiality of the human brain. Consciousness is more like the simple element: it doesn't break down or disintegrate on death, or return to it's simplest elemental form. Consciousness is already in it's simplest form and not subject to changes like materiality or complexes of elements are. It is perhaps unchanging, already in it's most simple elemental form. Science in it's effort to reduce what we can see into it's simplest parts can only see the traces left behind, perhaps.
Interesting thoughts. Thanks for your replies.
Michael |
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I think we are mostly in agreement about the source of consciousness, but your faith in it seems stronger than mine. It's an insoluble proof because we depend on the mind, which we agree we can't depend on. You may have an experience beyond the mind (though the scientists seem to be saying that is not so) but still depend on the mind to try to understand what it was. |
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| I just mentioned the book Awakening the Mind by Anna Wise (click for Amazon description) with a little info on it in a different thread (click) and thought it was somewhat relevant to this thread as well. |
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| My running monologue continues...
Here is a CNN article on the brain being "hardwired for religion". |
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Time article on consciousness
