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 The Sun SalutationModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
Nick |
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    Location: London, England | Hi there, Ian asked for some instruction on sun salutes. Here's my perception of what is supposed to be created through practice of this sequence of postures, which, individually, are not complex, but in sequence, are complex. My evolutionary theory isn't that great, but it is generally accepted, if you believe in evolution, that we are descended from brachiating primates-i.e. apes that used their arms (brachii-of the arm) to perambulate through the trees. This style of movement involves the ape holding onto a branch and basically pulling themselves towards it. What I would like to do, therefore, is suggest that we learn to use the sun salute to develop this pulling capability. I talked about this in another post recently. Try standing upright, with good posture. Hold your arms out in front of you, palms facing down. Now rotate the arms at the shoulder joint so that the palms of the hands turn towards each other, and then turn towards the ceiling. As you do this, try to use the arm as a screwdriver on the shoulder joint, so that it feels like you are 'screwing home' the shoulder joint. If your shoulder position is not optimal, the ball will not rotate in the socket as smoothly-practice using the muscular contractions to encourage a good shoulder position. If you now try doing the same thing, but with bad spinal posture, you will see that the movement is dysfunctional. So this action of the arms can help us realize the correct action of the trunk. Even as the ape would have pulled on a branch, and then pulled its body into the most optimal alignment in order to move across its terrain, so we can use the arm action to guide us more successfully through our yoga practice environment. Tadasana. The "Arm spiral theory" dictates that it is no good telling students to drop their shoulders to lengthen the neck and relax tight neck muscles. Doing this tends to create a faulty position of the neck and shoulders, and no wonder-you are effectively pushing down, perhaps unscrewing the shoulder joint and creating a practice which de-opimizes the shoulder joint, creating a body-wide adaptation to bad shoulder posture. Having said that, this teaching does have its uses, but it is limited. This re-positioning of the arms (in the AS theory) tends to externally rotate the shoulders, so that you may then continue this external rotation into the next position, utthita tadasana. This is very vital-many shoulder problems are created in yoga because people tend to internally rotate at the exact moment they are supposed to externally rotate-no wonder so many people complain in astanga yoga of having sore spots on the front of the shoulder joint-it's because of bad posture and faulty movement. The AS theory will also mean that the student learns to extend the thoracic spine and hip joints in order to extend into the next posture. This is a backbend-so right from the word go, you are training the muscular orchestration to stretch those structures which inhibit good posture in backbends-the hip flexors, and the shoulder extensors. Utthita Tadasana. You have now stretched your hands up to the ceiling and pressed your hands together. And you've got it wrong  Because to press your hands together, you would have been unscrewing your shoulder joint-so the shoulders are internally rotating at the same time as they should have beeen externally rotating. An ape does not move like this-it pulls-otherwise it wouldn't be able to swing-one extinct species. so get hold of a pull-up bar, and hang off it with both hands, and feel whats it's like to screw the shoulder home. You are then using a clsed kinetic chain movment to experience what happens when your body is being pulled into alignment, and in the closed kinetic chain you can learn how to use muscles that would often be described as opponents to good posture, and use them instead to give you better posture, more easily-it's all down to screwing home the shoulder, and applying the whole body to that task. You are now stretching down towards the floor, and at some point the hands are turning, so that the can face the floor. I hope you are still screwing the shoulder home-use the pronation of the forearm to turn the hand, rather than internal rotation at the shoulder joint. This is going to be hard-it makes your arms shorter, and therfore your hamstrings have to be longer to get your hands to the floor. if it was easy, everyone would be doing it So no moaning. Hasta Uttanasana. You have now breathed in and looked up. I know I'm jumping the forward bend, but I'm hoping you have used the AS to move through that posture and put your hands in the correct position. You are now pushing on your hands and are about to jump back-but wait-oh no, you are pushing! This is probably one of the primary factors in shoulder injuries-you stress the front of the joint capsule, destabilizing the joint and again setting up bad body posture. Make sure that you pull yourself over your hands, it's going to feel very strange, and as you do so, flex the hips, so that the pelvis is tipped upside down, and the pull that is exerted by the shoulder muscles then tips the pelvis upside down and the feet are pulled away from the floor-no jumping. Chaturanga Dandasana. When lifting back, you try to pull yourself down to the floor-this makes the movement easier, more controlled, safer. When you land, check that you still feel that you are pulling on the hands-this will take the rest of your life to master. It also means that you are pulling into the next posture, which means that you are using latissimus dorsi, which is the muscle that pulls the shoulder joint into extension, which means that the thoracic spine is extended, and the hips-fantastic. Like I said, this is hard, but the results are worth it. Will go on later, see what that brings up, I've left a lot out, but that's one way of looking at sun salutes-once you've got that lot, you've got the rest, anyway. Take care Nick | ||
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| Isola |
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Here's me and my crappy ability to understand English again...  Can you describe, and maybe show with pictures, the difference between internally and externally rotating the shoulders? This is mentiond alot, both regarding shoulders and hips, and I need to know what it means. My instructor doesn't talk as much as she touches and shows what you're doing wrong, and for like four weeks I have forgotten to ask about this whole rotating-thing. Otherwise... Great post, Nick! As always. ;) | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| Isola |
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| Ah, that sound simple enough! Thanks! | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi all, And going back even further in our evolutionary history, why do we like to dance? And I mean low-down, dirty, brazilian funky dancing ? Because our fishy ancestors used their spinal muscles and muscles of the rear fin to propel them through the water. Over 100's of millions of years, these muscles become the muscles that make a woman lok so beautiful when she dances-the spine and hip muscles. I can go to any nightclub or carnival in th world and see this It's a beautiful sight. When a dancefloor is empty, it takes a fish of some guts to go and dance on it. But once the other fishes see that it is a good environment, they join in. Soon, the dancefloor is filled with fish, swimming as a shoal to the beat that is being played at ear-splitting volume. Then everyone is happy-they are home. This is a great nightclub. This is, I think, what distinguishes a great yoga class from a mediocre one-when we swim as a shoal, it brings us closer to what we really are. Just a personal theory. Nick Edited by Nick 2007-04-01 6:48 PM | ||
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| riftweaver |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jason, I'll go into that later, but I think if your shoulder is already injured, perhaps try to utilize the AS theory in rehab exercises that you have already been given-start simple, then make progress. But will write about it later-just needed a break yesterday, and thought it would be better if I fed you in segments Nick | ||
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| OrangeMat |
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| Hi Nick, Here I am again questioning and putting things in my own words just to make sure I understand your concepts  This "arm spiral" theory, is this your terminology or something I can look up elsewhere? Because unless I misunderstood you (which I don't believe I did), you're saying what my teacher says about the arms and the legs as well: that you perform outward AND inward rotation on all the limbs simultaneously. Again, this phraseology may not sit well with you (it doesn't with most of her students unfortunately from what I noticed, but I seem to have gotten to understanding it lately). The ball of the shoulder joint rotates externally, which we work on accomplishing by spreading the collarbones. For beginning students the cue is to move the shoulderblades back and down into the body, creating that "pinching a pencil" type of reaction between the shoulderblades. Why cue them "wrong", you ask? Because it's all you can do to get them not to hunch the shoulderheads forward and cave in the chest. As the student learns more body awareness and control, the cue is to broaden the space between the shoulderblades, keeping the broadness in the collarbones as well. In other words, not so much retraction as depression with external rotation. Do I have that right? Now looking down the arm while it's still extended forward as in your first description, the upper arm, bicep in particular, is also rotating out (we haven't engaged that part yet, no worries). The eye of the elbow points vertically, so without changing the shoulder position, the upper arm should be encouraged to rotate inwardly. Eye of the elbow should still point up, use muscular engagement throughout the arm to keep that happening. This is the same as that boxer's arm pronation from several threads ago, yes? So there ya go, external and internal (so to speak) rotation at the same time, to provide strength and stability to pull through all the motions. In downward dog the cue is to broaden the collarbones while energetically pulling the forearms and wrists toward each other, focusing on keeping the wrist creases parallel to the top of the mat. Same thing goes for leg alignments as well: shins in, thighs apart to create a meld of external and internal rotation. A widening of the hip joints allows the leg bones to "screw in" (we call it "plug in", same thing), creating proper strength, alignment and stability. Now if only the body knew it needed to be able to move and stay as securely as this, and would allow it! PS -- Just in case I wasn't clear, I am agreeing with all of your descriptions, Nick. I'm just offering up the techniques I've found that have helped myself and others to learn what it feels like to perform these actions. It's one thing to understand what needs to be done, it's the other to figure out how to do it with your body's own little quirks, injuries and limitations. If I've got anything wrong with what you've posted, feel free to advise. | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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| "Well, I think you have something, but I wouldn't teach it-I could be more forceful here, and say that this description is one that I have seen many times before, and it's based on a faulty understanding of human anatomy-how are going to breathe deeply if you are depressing the shoulder complex? That would bear down on the rib cage and destroy a good breathing mechanism. There's far too much instruction like this going on in yoga classes-poor anatomy." Well I told you I might not have all the words right! If I were to say "don't elevate the shoulders to the ears" instead of "depression", would you say I'm still not understanding you? You've got to understand the level of the people I work with. As soon as you say "engage the abdominals", their shoulders are hunched up to the ears. Personally, I still think we're talking the same thing. I have to go back and look at your comments about the elbows again, though. After I wrote my response in this thread, I wrote something to Jason about the elbows in downdog, which I think cleared up what you're commenting about. Please understand that I'm not challenging what you're putting forth, just putting it into my own terms to make sure I understand. Many paths, one truth. No worries. | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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| riftweaver |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om, I assure you, I don't take offence to anything you say Nick | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | "I can't seen to reconcile a stronger external rotation at the shoulders, and still keep my inner elbows facing each other. Just sitting here at my desk, for example, I can hold out the arms palms down, and rotate the shoulders as described above so that my palms are up. (At this point, my inner elbows are both facing upwards.) If I "spiral" my forearms, so that my palms go back down (my forearm rotates about halfway down) while not moving the rest of the arm chain, then my inner elbows still face upwards; and this is roughly the position my arms would have in down dog." Hi Jason, That forearm rotation is not happening halway down your forearm. It is happening at the proximal radio-ulnar joint. I'm guessing that you aren't getting the elbow rotation as a result of locking at the elbow joint. I just tried it and that caused the cubital fossa to stay facing the sky (I'll give you an elbow in your eye if you say that again ). This means that you won't be pulling the right way through the elbow. If you really were pulling, the flexor muscles of the hand that are on the forearm, would contract to hold on to that branch-then the flexors of the elbow contract, which cause the elbow to flex a bit, so that it is not extended by excessive triceps contraction. This means that both the triceps and the biceps are contracting to maintain good elbow posture-co-contraction, which is like a splint for the joint. Obviously, the shoulders and wrists are both affected by the optimization of the joint that links them. try grabbing hold of someone's hand and pull on them-see how the tendency is for the elbow to bend, not straighten-do you think this applies to you? Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | hi Ian, Well, I think the spiral principle aplies to just about everything-it's probably related to the spirals that fish make with their fins to change direction-it all comes back to our fishy ancestors Nick P.s. I use it in the legs and hips as well... | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | ian****er - 2007-04-09 9:23 AM Hi Nick I've been trying to spiral my trailing hip in warrior etc. Is the action to try to turn the left hand/foot clockwise and the right one anti so that I am trying in effect to turn them inwards towards each other on the mat? Would this work in the lift ups such as ut pluthi or perhaps dandasana? Ian Hi Ian, Either I'm confused, or you are And I think maybe it's you that is confusing both of us If the back, left leg is spiralling to produce internal rotation of that hip, all well and good. But then you say that if the right leg is going anti, then the knee must be turning in-but in fact, anticlockwise would externally rotate the right hip, causing the femur to abduct slightly (resisting turning moments), and for the knee to feel as though it is being guided out-although the aim is to get the tibia aligned so that when you flex the knee, it follows a line that goes out through the front of your foot. Ut Pluthi? Definitely. Dandasana? For sure-you name a posture, and I'll show how spiralling can improve your understanding and awareness of health and optimization of your body. There you go, there's a challenge Nick | ||
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| riftweaver |
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Nick - 2007-04-09 7:32 AM For sure-you name a posture, and I'll show how spiralling can improve your understanding and awareness of health and optimization of your body. There you go, there's a challenge NickI'll take that challenge and raise you one! Er, not really on that last part. ;) How about spiralling in padangusthasana and pada hastasana? I'm sure there's a lot going on there, but I don't think these asanas get enough attention to detail, because they aren't as flashy, but I'll bet proper spirals really encourage good extension in a safe fashion. --Jason | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jason, Good, I like a man who isn't afraid to place a bet! Like you say, these two postures are sadly neglected-keep the legs straight, and pull on your feet seems to be about it. First, using the legs (hey, there's a beautiful jaybird outside my window ). The spiral should help to form a muscular binding across the knee joints that means that the muscle begins to act as a kind of 'extensible ligament.' That is, it serves to protect the joint through a full range of motion-very important in yoga to adhere to this principle, obviously. What need to happen with both postures is that the centre of pressure on the foot is on the 'first ray complex', or near there. The first ray complex is the big toe and its surrounding structures. In pada, this means that the fingers are pressed down by the big toe, which is also rotating to face the floor-because you have grabbed hold of the big toe (hallux), the pad of the toe is turned away from the floor, usually sideways. When you lift your toe up so that you can hook your fingers around it, notice it is much more difficult if you only extend the toe,rather than evert the foot-keep extending the toe. In this way, you are addressing the forces that are going to try to give you bad posture. As you press down on the fingers with the hallux, try to notice how the entire foot, and then the body, are pulled into alignment by the pull on the foot-remember to do the short foot position, it is closely related to spiral theory.-the pull starts from your extremities. Now you complete the circle by spiralling the arms. Because the fott is pressing down as the arms are basically pulling up, you get a strong reference point for what yuo are actually trying to pull towards. Anything that gets in the way of this pull, you attempt to overcome it, if it's muscular. In these forward bends, often the shoulders elevate-so the objective is to depress and retract them. The hips tend to externally rotate and extend-you arrest the movment. Unfortunately, the most visible thing is if the knees cannot extend due to tight hams-in fact, the knee joint should be the last joint in the body to begin to extend into position-get the hips, spine and shoulders in good posture, then try straightening your knees-you will find it much harder than normal-why? Because most of the time, you do yoga sub-optimally-a hard truth from a hard city Getting people to stretch their hams and keep the spine in good posture is a full-time job for a yoga teacher-but it's nice to see the delight on the student's faces when they find out that their hams are not as long as they though they were, but that thye had just been stretching the spine through dangerous ranges of motion. Often, their hams are as tight as a 16 stone rugby player's-they've just got expert at finding the path of least resistance, when they should have been finding the path of most muscular resistance. Take care Nick | ||
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| riftweaver |
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| Wow, so much detail for a seemingly simple posture. My fingers hurt just thinking about typing all that, but it was good stuff to read. John Scott's book mentions pressing down with the backs of the hands when doing pada hastasana... I find that feels better, but makes it harder to keep my shoulders down. I think I'm going to start a new post and ask about trikonasana today. That's one of my problem spots (it's gotten better though!), and I have a personal thing where tri to the left makes the left side of the SI crack/pop/adjust. I'd rather watch birds outside the window than sit here at work right now. It's cold and snowy here in Cleveland. Thank goodness I have this forum to distract me. --Jason | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | riftweaver - 2007-04-09 2:05 PM Wow, so much detail for a seemingly simple posture. My fingers hurt just thinking about typing all that, but it was good stuff to read. John Scott's book mentions pressing down with the backs of the hands when doing pada hastasana... I find that feels better, but makes it harder to keep my shoulders down. I think I'm going to start a new post and ask about trikonasana today. That's one of my problem spots (it's gotten better though!), and I have a personal thing where tri to the left makes the left side of the SI crack/pop/adjust. I'd rather watch birds outside the window than sit here at work right now. It's cold and snowy here in Cleveland. Thank goodness I have this forum to distract me. --Jason Hi Jason, I can see why John Scott would make this recommendation-I guess whether it turns out well depends on which muscles you use to press down-in your case, your are probably using the upper trapezius, levator scapulae, parts of pectoralis, but not efficently. considering your SI joint as well, I wouldn't be surpised to see both force and function pre-disposing you to SI pain. Which kind of answers any questions on trikonasana which you may post, beat you to it I've had countless questions from SI pain sufferers about trikonasana-it's the first point in the astanga sequence where they have an opportunity to tilt their pelvis sideways (apart from warrior 1). The recommendations usually given for pelvic tilt in this posture demonstrate the dire need for better anatomical training of yoga teachers in the world today. Bring it on! Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | "first question: in warrior, should you think about trying to turn your trailing foot into your body, ie clockwise for the left leg and anti for the right? Should there be no spiralling in the front leg at all? Definitely spiral both legs-in fact, look at every posture you ddask whther you are spiralling and whther it might help to do the posture without injury and for the best effect "second question: when you have your feet or hands parallel on the mat, should the action be to try to turn the two towards each other, ie left hand/foot clockwise, right anticlock?" Good question which shows you are getting it. I use padottanasana to find out whether a student understands short foot. Remember that anticlockwise applies to the leg-not the foot. The short foot action should mean that the foot stays put-then spiralling will cause the body dynamic to change, rather than simply turning the foot. If the spiralling makes you want to turn your foot because you have realized it was in the wrong place, then by all means turn it anticlockwise. In fact, I would be surprised if spiralling did not have this effect. So, with short feet, now begin spiralling. A common problem with this posture is that students succeed in getting their kneecaps to face forwards, which is correct, by hyper-extending the knees-looked at from the side, there should be a vertical line going from the lateral malleolus, to the side of the knee, to the greater trochanter. This is good straight-leg posture. Usually, instead, you will see the knee and trochanter some way back, resulting in reduced hip flexion, increased lumbar flexion, and knee hyper-extension. A good variation of padottanasana is where you grab the shins-don't grab the feet or toes, this is usually useless. Now, if you spiral with your arms, the forearm should come into contact with the outside of the calf, and the elbow is against the outside of the knee-if you are spiralling, it should feel like the forearm is being dragged up the calf. If you are leg-spiralling, it will feel like the action in your legs is joining in with the direction that the forearm is sliding-as though your arms and legs were telescopes with joints. As a sign that everything is good, the knee should feel as though it is being lifted-not the kneecap, the whole knee. This is why I don't use the instruction to lift the kneecap-it's besides the point. You will feel like you are about to fall on your head as you tip over-go for it-balance is one of the finest things that we can accomplish in a yoga class "I'll take the bet too. Can you explain LAST (leg arm spiral theory-did I think that one up?) for marichyasana please?" He he, That's actually a lot better than the names I was coming up with I can see you two are sharp poker players, will have to watch my step Which marichyasana? A,B,C,D? Nick | ||
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