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Tensegrity Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga	Message format

Nick

Posted 2007-04-17 7:00 PM (#83590)
Subject: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi all,
Jut thought I would start a discussion on tensegrity. I would say that it has perhaps had a greater impact on my understanding of how to make yoga as good for us as possible than any other factor that I have studied.
What is tensegrity?

"The word 'tensegrity' is an invention: a contraction of 'tensional integrity.' Tensegrity describes a structural-relationship principle in which structural shape is guarenteed by the finitely closed, comprehensively continuous, tensional behaviors of the system and not by the discontinuous and exclusively local compressional member behaviors. Tensegrity provides the ability to yield increasingly without ultimately breaking or coming asunder"

Buckminster Fuller

Bio-tensegrity is a term that has been used to apply tensegrity to living organisms. It is a beautiful concept which gave rise to the geodesic dome tent, so you wil appreciate how clever it is

I would go so far as to say, that if a teacher does not apply the principles of tensegrity to the adjustments and corrections they make to their students, then they are not doing the best they can. I have a model at home, I'm just looking into making a model of the human spine, will post it if I make it. I promise you, it's fantastic-look also at Kenneth Snelson and buckminster fuller, the two godfathers of tensegrity, and if you can, an article called 'the architecture of life,' by Donald Ingber. I'm giving search engine clues, because to do justice to this incredible concept, which has been theorized to be the pattern by which life and the universe are formed (clay is a tensegrity structure-life formed in clay-like substrates), would be truly daunting in this medium-so look it up, get a model, become a nerd, and have fun.

Take care
Nick

Edited by Nick 2007-04-17 7:05 PM

jonnie

Posted 2007-04-17 10:55 PM (#83605 - in reply to #83590)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Buckminster Fuller strongly influenced one of my favourite people, Robert Anton Wilson.

Jonathon

Nick

Posted 2007-04-18 2:42 AM (#83613 - in reply to #83605)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jonnie,
I've got a feeling this discussion is going to be fun-you and me keep on over-lapping. We have different influences (although I read Wilson when I was younger), but much of the underlying thought processesses (?) are the same with the regards to correct yoga practice. Not surprising as we are trying to understand the same design, if different methods of getting there-just important to enjoy the ride

I mentioned how clay exhibits tensegrity characteristics. Tensegrity is found at microscopic as well as macro-scopic levels. Some fans think it is the pattern that holds the universe together-black holes acting as compression struts, planets and bodies acting to provide tension through gravity. It is also being used in some areas of cancer research at the moment, they theorize that tensegrity exists in many different levels of the human body-in fact, what do you feel when you are practicing well? With me, it's awareness of creating tension-when I practice badly, I can feel compression in specific areas. Funnily enough, on a practical level, this is one reason why I don't weight-bear on my head in headstand-when you look at the muscles and ligaments underneath the skull, it's bizarre how you are reminded of a tensgrity model-these joints should be held in tension, not compression.
I want to come round and look at your book case

Nick

riftweaver

Posted 2007-04-18 7:39 AM (#83623 - in reply to #83590)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

This does seem to have been a yoga buzzword lately.

Here is a video clip I found a couple weeks ago, which starts to show how this concept applies to yoga.

Flow T.V. show Episode 2 Clip #1 “tensegrity”

--Jason

Nick

Posted 2007-04-18 7:51 AM (#83624 - in reply to #83623)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jason,
I'm sorry to see that tensegrity has been hi-jacked by those who don't understand it-that was embarrassing-next time, can you warn me when you put videos like that up

I was having a nice day up till then

And my model is better than his model

Nick

tourist

Posted 2007-04-18 9:49 AM (#83644 - in reply to #83624)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

I saw a documentary on BF when I was a teen. He was brilliant and I was vastly impressed by his ideas. However, it is so far over my head, I can't possibly explain any of it beyond "soooo cool!"

In the backwoods of BC we have many, many geodesic dome houses built int he 60's by US draft dodgers and back-to-the-landers.

Nick

Posted 2007-04-18 6:05 PM (#83687 - in reply to #83644)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

tourist - 2007-04-18 2:49 PM

I saw a documentary on BF when I was a teen. He was brilliant and I was vastly impressed by his ideas. However, it is so far over my head, I can't possibly explain any of it beyond "soooo cool!"

In the backwoods of BC we have many, many geodesic dome houses built int he 60's by US draft dodgers and back-to-the-landers.

Hi Glenda,
Heehee, those backwoods stoners probably liked the idea of a tent that's easy to put up

Tomorrow, I'll try to begin that spine-wish me luck

Nick

Posted 2007-04-30 10:45 AM (#84651 - in reply to #83687)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

"The principles of tensegrity apply at essentially every detectable size scale in the human body. At the macroscopic level, the 206 bones that constitute our skeleton are pulled up against the force of gravity and stabilized in a vertical form by the pull of tensile muscles, tendons and ligaments. In other words, in the complex tensegrity structure inside every one of us, bones are the compression struts, and muscles, tendons and ligaments [and all, interconnected internal fascial structures] are the tension-bearing members.”

Donald Ingber, from “The Architecture of Life”,
Scientific American, January 1998.

Isola

Posted 2007-04-30 11:20 AM (#84652 - in reply to #84651)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

This all sounds very interesting, I'm going to find something to read about it in Swedish, then I can hopefully join in on the discussion.

Nick

Posted 2007-04-30 2:11 PM (#84664 - in reply to #84652)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jenny,
Go for it-'bio-tensegrity' will give you plenty to look at, I hope

Nick

jonnie

Posted 2007-04-30 2:44 PM (#84672 - in reply to #83590)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

There is a nice article here:

http://connectivehealing.com/index_files/structural_integration_fascia_tensegrity.html

That puts it into quite practical terms.

Jonathon

Nick

Posted 2007-04-30 10:27 PM (#84713 - in reply to #84672)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

This is one of the main scientists involved in this:
http://www.biotensegrity.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Edited by Nick 2007-04-30 10:33 PM

Nick

Posted 2007-04-30 10:33 PM (#84714 - in reply to #84652)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

The tensegrity spine

This is also excellent, from the above website:
http://www.biotensegrity.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Edited by Nick 2007-04-30 10:40 PM

(spine.jpg)

Attachments
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spine.jpg (52KB - 95 downloads)

jonnie

Posted 2007-05-02 1:37 AM (#84831 - in reply to #83590)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Ok, I've got the theory, though I'm having a challenge transferring it into practise....

Any tips?

Nick

Posted 2007-05-03 2:47 AM (#85011 - in reply to #84831)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jonnie,
"Ok, I've got the theory, though I'm having a challenge transferring it into practise...."

Well, for instance, you know I use that idea of contracting the muscles on the sole of the foot to create the action that feldenkrais practicioners sometimes call 'the short foot?' One of the things that happens is that the tension in the foot muscles is transferred around the body-you can feel this if you allow alignment to change according to the tension that is created-just like a tensegrity model. the object is to create tension that runs across joints, rather than aligning yourself so that the tension creates compression at the joints.
And you know 'Vesuvian man' by Da Vinci? Try doing that pose, get two people to grab your wrists, you hold onto theirs, and pull-feel how tension is created across the shoulder complex in particular, resulting in retraction of the scapula-an essential for good posture and also for understanding lifting into handstand. When you do lift into handstand, you can use a 'short hand.' This is basically what you did when you pulled on your helper's wrists. In handstand, because the hands are fixed, the body gets pulled over the hands, so that body weight is transferred smoothly from the feet to the hands-takes practice-your alignment will have to change.
Now what happens is that the idea of bandha starts to exert a pull on the whole body-like the sun, it exerts tension across the joints and through the muscles and fascia. I think this is very important, so that the techniques that we use, such as bandha, breathing, and good posture, are linked up, rather than striving to achieve all simultaneously but in isolation.
I was reading Pavel's 'naked warrior recently, and it would appear that he is also using this-he pulls down to the floor in the press-up position, basically, so that the powerful lats become active-co-contraction and tension then happen. In a handstand, as you begin to bear weight on the hands, you will find that the sternum gets pulled towards the floor, and you will feel as though you are trying to plant your face on the floor-this will take your centre of gravity higher up your torso, resulting in a lower centre of gravity, and greater stability.
Hope that helps, lets us know how it goes-it takes some time to change the way you perform yoga, and to understand how to integrate this into your practice.

Take care
Nick

Edited by Nick 2007-05-03 2:48 AM

jonnie

Posted 2007-05-03 4:26 AM (#85013 - in reply to #83590)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Very nice indeed.

That totally makes sense. I was doing a lot of internet browsing on tensegrity and found it very interesting but also very theoretical. This gives me stuff to work with...

Donna Farhi was teaching something very similar in the last workshop I attended with her.

Nick

Posted 2007-05-03 4:42 AM (#85015 - in reply to #85013)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jonnie,
Another good one to work with is to observe how this keeps the knee properly aligned in standing postures such as the warrior poses, parsvakonasana, pavritta parsvakonasana, where you often find the bent knee mis-aligned. By pulling with the foot, and also with bandha, tension is created along the leg which pulls the knee around to face the side, so that when you bend the knee, it doesn't tend to collapse inwards. You will also feel the external rotators of the hips pick up, so that greater stretch is felt in whichever hip muscles are impinging on the movement/posture-dynamic flexibility!

You should also find that the core stability strength test is improved, and that rather than pushing down so much, you pull nito the posture, so that when you start to lift one arm or leg, the tension prevents hip, shoulder, or spine movement-you are more stable.
Hope that helps as well

Take care
Nick

Nick

Posted 2007-05-11 2:01 AM (#85933 - in reply to #85015)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi there,
Just found this picture, might help to realize the human as a tensegrity structure.

Take care
Nick

(Albert_jan-05.jpg)

Attachments
----------------

Albert_jan-05.jpg (17KB - 64 downloads)

dmbones

Posted 2007-05-11 12:31 PM (#85990 - in reply to #85011)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Hi Nick,

Fascinating thread. Thanks for sharing. Thanks also to you, Jonathan, for the links.

The message I get from your "short foot," "short hand," and banda comments are that tensegrity in practice seems to engage as any part of the whole is activated, similar to the holgraphic phenomenon (the whole is availabe by observation of any single part of it). If this is correct, then do we evoke core support by maintaining consciousness of any of the bandas (for example)? And, can this be translated to moment to moment life, aside from yogasana?

Thanks for your generosity.

Michael

riftweaver

Posted 2007-05-11 1:08 PM (#85995 - in reply to #85011)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Nick - 2007-05-03 2:47 AM
I was reading Pavel's 'naked warrior recently, and it would appear that he is also using this-he pulls down to the floor in the press-up position, basically, so that the powerful lats become active-co-contraction and tension then happen.

So what did you think of Pavel's description of the "anal lock"? I was trying to figure if he meant the same thing is mula bandha, although I don't think it was quite the same thing...

--Jason

Nick

Posted 2007-05-11 1:51 PM (#86001 - in reply to #85990)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Michael,
I think that activating bandha does offer us advantages outside of yoga-I mean, you are deliberately forming a body position which activates the core muscles-or you are using your core muscles to maintain a position. This should carry though to the activities of our daily lives-training good posture.

Nick

Nick

Posted 2007-05-11 2:00 PM (#86002 - in reply to #85995)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Jason,
I think it's similiar.

Nick

dmbones

Posted 2007-05-12 2:58 PM (#86074 - in reply to #85933)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Hi Nick,

This may sound heretical, but given the piezo electric capacity of the fascia in humans, can it reasonably be assumed that sitting in the classic right tetrahedron, with it's demands for a 90 degree angle between the axial skeleton and the lower extremities, that the state of samadhi is a natural function flowing from the accomplished form?

Michael

Nick

Posted 2007-05-12 3:20 PM (#86075 - in reply to #86074)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Location: London, England

Hi Michael,
I see you are getting into this

I have asked myself whether this piezo-electric effect may be the foundation for some of the spiritual experiences ascribed to yoga practice. What is also intersting is how tension in the fascia can modify our genetic expression-the fascia pulls on the cyto-skeleton of cells, which chnages the position of the nucleus, which apparently changes the genetic expression of the cell-I believe that Donald Ingber and others have written about this, and that it may play a part in battling cancer in the future. Could it be that a yoga practice can actually modify cells towards 'perfection?' Also, it has been said that the children of holocaust survivors can have their genes modified by the experience of their ancestors-I'm not sure how this goes, expect it's something like their parent's gentic output is affected, or their personality is affected, and this is passed on to the kids-not sure what the results were (just brainstorming from the stuff I've read). So it may be that a well designed yoga practice enables us to rid ourselves of the karma that befalls us.
I'm glad you tackled tensegrity from this angle, because i wasn't going to address it, but you can see how you have found a link for your ideas, and that they seem connected to mine, although from a different angle-this is a sure sign that tensegrity is at work-ideas, which are akin to compression struts, being in symbiosis through a continous tension-a web, if you will-fantastic

Nick

dmbones

Posted 2007-05-14 11:14 AM (#86223 - in reply to #86075)
Subject: RE: Tensegrity

Hi Nick,

Fascinating, indeed! Thinking about this, I'm led back to the work of Robert Becker ('The Body Electric') and Bjorn Nordenstrom ('Closed Biological Electrial Systems') and their research showing that all plant and animal organisms exist within an electromagnetic field and that the bodies are themselves electromagnetic in nature, that injury to any part of the organism produces electrical changes within the site of injury that dictates when and how fast the injury will repair, and that microcurrent applications of electricity can cause some cellular DNA to dedifferentiate back into more primitive states. These, and other now, researchers have shown that in addition to the nerves, the human body carries electrical currents in the bone matrix, the paraneural cells, and the interstitial tissues. Additionally, we can measure with sensitive magnetic spectometry the electromagnetic human field as far as four feet from the body. Today, in MedPage, we see that the ipod is causing interference with pacemakers.

It appears that we each have a holographic image of our body that is innate to it, which occurs naturally. If the body is injured, from a fractured bone to a tumor to mechanical distortion of the fascia/cellular cytoskeleton, then these changes are measurable in the body's electromagnetic field. Applications of micro levels of electricity can alter and correct some of these injurious changes. Perhaps accomplishing biomechanical integrity in the human body, achieving 'correct' posture, is also a way of facilitating these changes. It would be wonderful to measure the body's EM potential changes moving into the 'connection' of a well accomplished asana.

http://alpha-stim.com/Information/Products/Educational/BCEC_Rev/bcec_rev.html (Nordenstrom)
http://alpha-stim.com/Information/Products/Educational/CES_Excerpt/Chapter_9/chapter_9.html (Becker stuff)
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/Arrhythmias/dh/5634 (Ipod interference with pacemakers)

Michael

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