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| Hi all,
Apologies if this one has been brought up before, but I can't find an answer to my question on the forum search.
Is there a Nick/ashtanga way of getting up into a headstand?
I can do it against a wall no problem by hopping up. Since I've been doing ashtanga though, I've been trying to do it on the mat in the centre of the room but so far I can only just about get one foot off the floor.
Most of the yoga books I have suggest moving your hips backwards to make it easier, but I just find my elbows lifting off the mat which can't help as surely the base needs to be solid before you can balance.
Is it just a case of pulling hard with my core or is there another technique? Where should my spirals be going, and should there be any tensegrity involved? ;)
I know I'm being cheeky here, but I'd like a bit of guidance please.
Ian |
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| ian****er - 2007-04-19 3:44 AM
Is it just a case of pulling hard with my core or is there another technique?
That's what I do. Put my head on the floor, and lift the legs. The first couple of inches are the worst, but you should be able to get it all the way after that. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
I just typed in 'nick headstand' and found seventy-seven matches, so there has been a fair amount of discussion. I tend to stay away from discussions involving headstand because once people have learnt to do the pose with the head on the floor and bearing weight, they won't stop-or hardly ever. So I've found it pointless to go through all the reasons for not bearing weight on the head, but only on the forearms and hands-but for you, cheekiness has paid off  You've proven yourself to be open-minded and adaptable to change (unlike some  ), so we can talk about it if you like-and yes, there is a 'Nick' way. Bearing in mind that I'm not just inventing these methods out of nowhere, and that they come from a good physiotherapeutic, anatomical and physiological basis.
So let's not waste time discussing the pros and cons of whether to put the head on the floor or not. Let's instead discuss how to not weight-bear on the head. I'm betting that someone will try to put forward a case for skull weight-bearing-if you do, could you please give at least one good reason for doing so-not 'my teacher told me to do it.'
As you can tell, I'm a bit pithy today I think it's best to, otherwise I spend half my time challenging stupidity to no avail.
But I will say this-if any of you want to make a lot of money, advertise in hospitals and doctors surgeries and find people with cervical problems who have practiced yoga headstands. Get a medical expert to look at their scans and x-rays, and see if they can testify that the damage could have been caused by weight-bearing on the skull. I'm pretty sure that there will be litigation in the future, and not one of the litigants will be one of my students, unless they have ignored my advice, which I'm sure many of them do. So let's not discuss headstand in a way which means you will be more likely to become another hospital statistic.
When done in the way I suggest, the difficulty of headstand gets closer to the same difficulties that you will face in doing scorpion, handstands, vinyasa-so headstand is a great posture for building up the necessary resources for these other postures, and more.
As you are practicing by yourself, I'm not surprised you cannot get up-I'm not sure if I could get you into headstand in one class, but would definitely be able to point out where you need to change-in fact, with you, I'd be surprised if you weren't floating up there in a few minutes. Something about your pictures and inquiring mind tell me that-hope that doesn't sound patronizing, meant it to be a compliment
So, bring on the questions!
Take care
Nick |
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| Hey Ian,
The best way is to interlace your fingers place your head between the hands (head off the floor) walk the feet in so that your hips are over your shoulders. From there inhale and draw the legs off the floor with baddhas Usually I put a little bit of my head on top of my hands. Hips might come a little past your shoulders and then when fully extended you will have you hips directly over your shoulders. Think of them as 4 spheres 2 stacked on top of each other (shoulders and hips)
In Yoga Mala. Guruji spends a good deal of time talking about headstand. Basically if you can't do without falling or without using your arm strength you should avoid it until the body is ready. Very important to take the weight off the head, I agree with Nick. Although old dogs can change...The two arguments I would give for head on the floor would be strengthens neck and prepares you for intermediate headstands. But personally, I'm practicing them with head off the ground.
Although if you move to Intermediate there's a bunch of weight bearing HEADstands waiting for you around the corner. So, at some point you may have to take a stand on what type of yoga you want to practice and weigh the benefits. |
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| HI Nick,
Can you start me off with the basic set up of hands and shoulders just to check I'm OK with this bit. I'm guessing that once I've got the base right, then I'm half way there.
Should there be any spiral/rotational forces at work in the arms here?
Ian |
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| Hey TE,
I think I've got the interlace OK. My main problem is that the feet don't seem to want to leave the floor. When I move my feet in to get my hips up, my elbows want to come off the floor which doesn't feel right either.
Ian |
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| I hate headstand (what an unyogic thing to say!). I don't like it because I know I'm doing it all wrong, but because my SI is so unstable (among other things), I can't figure out how to accomodate for that to build up the posture to feel totally "stacked up" and balanced. I'm actually meeting privately with my teacher in a couple weeks to work on that particular pose. Hopefully I'll find my way in it then. The only way I've ever felt successful in headstand is to practice the tripod version from prasarita padottanasana, taking the legs up in the straddle overhead. My head does make contact with the floor, but there's no direct pressure, it's all the arms and shoulders. I understand how I got to feel balanced there: my torso lengthened sufficiently to allow my head to reach the floor, my core was engaged, and my legs were properly aligned and rotated due to working the straddle forward bend sufficiently. But to achieve all those correct and balanced-feeling alignments in Sirsasana I, I'm lost. Like I said, I'm meeting with my teacher in a few weeks, so hopefully I'll learn how to lengthen my torso and pull my ribcage up against gravity while continuing to press the forearms down to lift up, all while keeping the core engaged and hips aligned. Heh, that IS what you need to do, isn't it? I knew that all along, just can't seem to find it in my body! |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
Always a spiral somewhere! Loked at from the side, the arms form two sides of a triangle, the hypoteneuse and the base. When you clasp your hands, squeeze them so that the palms are pressed together (notice this action is going to bring up the muscular tension throughout the body, making you stronger). It also gets the spirals active, and produces external shoulder rotation which brings the elbows towards each other and helps you press down through the arms.
If you try the pose with your palms against the back of the head, you will discover that because yuo have lengthened the base of the triangle, the hypoteneuse is at a lesser angle-the shoulders are closer to the floor, then the head stays on the floor. In most people the head can still touch the floor, but is also drawn away from the floor by the action of the arms and shoulders-result? Tension, not compression, at the top of the neck. You asked for tensegrity, and you got it
One of the difficulties with headstand is that because the hips are flexed, the tendency is to lose the lumbar curve and collapse the abdominal wall-then bandhas do not get developed by using headstand-then you never learn how to lift into handstands, etc. Or at least, it's more unlikely.
As you practice at home, give your self plenty of space-psychologically, I find this very important, and obviously, physically, it's important too not to be injured by falling onto something.
Take care
Nick |
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| Hi Nick,
Maybe I"m being a bit thick here, but I'm not really sure whether I'm supposed to stay with my palms together, or press them against the back of my head.
How do I lengthen the base of the triangle and why? Surely having the head touching the floor makes it harder to take the weight on the arms?
Ian
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| I think I've got the base working OK, I tried pushing my palms together this morning and it made it all much firmer I think.
The next part is going up on my toes and moving my feet towards my head. How should I do this, which muscles are pulling and where? How close should I get my feet before I start to try getting them off the floor?
Ian |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
Well, according to the whole world (or at least most of it), you are supposed to do headstand with the palms on the back of the skull, and the head on the floor. Like I said, I'm not going to argue that one again. If there was a chance I was wrong, I would not be so insistent. Those who want to practice headstand bearing weight on the skull are welcome to do so. I would seriously urge anyone with even a grain of sense not to do the pose in this way.
You do not want to lengthen the base of the triangle-pressing the palms together shortens the base (the forearms and hands). You are then lengthening the distance from the shoulders to the floor, or at least potentially.
I think you might be having trouble picturing this. I regularly go over to my castle in Transylvania to hang upside down with my bat buddies-do you fancy coming in the summer?
Nick |
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| Nick,
Sounds fab, my family are almost vampires anyway judging by the films and books they like!
Sorry to be so dense, I seem to have taken in more about how not to do headstand which I think I had anyway!
Can you go through step by step the "Nick" way of forming the base of the headstand again please?
Ian |
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Location: London, England | ian****er - 2007-04-20 8:02 AM
I think I've got the base working OK, I tried pushing my palms together this morning and it made it all much firmer I think.
The next part is going up on my toes and moving my feet towards my head. How should I do this, which muscles are pulling and where? How close should I get my feet before I start to try getting them off the floor?
Ian
Hi Ian,
Just to clarify, do not push the palms together-act as though you were pulling yourself towards a branch over your head. If you were to actually do this, your hands would squeeze the branch as you prepared to take your weight with your arms.
How close should the feet be-that depends, but usually as close as you can get-with the spine extended-the thoracic spine tends to get kyphotic as you bring your feet in, use the pose to increase your ability to extend the thoracic spine in difficult circumstances (headstand is a great warm-up for backbends).
When you bring the feet in, go right up onto tip-toe, so that as you leave the floor, it is a consequence of you pulling your self up, rather than pushing with the legs. In this case, as the feet leave the floor, they will sweep over it as they leave the floor, rather than going through a quick departure.
I seem to be emphasizing the gluteals and hamstrings a lot lately, but once again, it is these muscles which are so important-they are hip extensors-and once you are in the headstand position, with the feet on the floor, this is the only movement that takes place-then the feet go towards the ceiling. If you bend your knees, then knee flexion occurs too-but that's the hamstrings again, so no change in muscle activation there-to keep the legs straight you are using the quads as well.
So, as you prepare to lift off, try to squeeze your glutes-they pre-contract so that they become the prime movers-leaving the glute contraction to when you are off the ground may result in another muscle/group taking over the gluteal function.
Interestingly, if you will let me go nerdy for a second, the fibres of gluteus maximus exert tension on the contralateral latissimus dorsi, and vice versa. The lats obviously have a role in headstand, and their role is demarcated by the gluteal function-you can pull yourself up using these two muscles (oversimplification). The latissimus are some of the most powerful muscles in the human body-a pulling muscle.
Nick |
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| Nick,
By George I think I've got it! 
Just one more thing (sorry I watched Columbo a lot in my youth):
How should I squeeze my glutes? Is there a monkey-in-the-tree analogy I can hold on to here as well? I liked the tree branch one in the last post.
Ian |
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| The lats, yes! Thank you again, Nick and Ian, for letting me eavesdrop your discussion, that must be my missing piece. Now all I need to do is learn how to wake up those sleepy muscles, but at least now I know in which direction to progress. |
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| Hi folks, jumping in because I'm interested in finding out if you think I'm doing my sirsasana properly... I'm especially confused about the involvement of the latissimus dorsi, as I don't know much of anything about this muscle. I've looked up images so I now see where it is located.
First off, I have no problem whatsoever in lifting my legs upwards, to me that is the easy part. Can I assume that I am therefore using the proper core contraction and bandhas if this lifting is not problematic?
What proves difficult is maintaining my weight on my arms without putting weight on my head over time. I am currently working on my balance in the pose as practiced without wall support, so I do have an interest in increasing the time that I can stay up in the pose without compromising the proper action of the arms. So here's what happens to me:
When I am up in the headstand, I find that I have difficulty distributing my weight evenly on my forearms, it feels as though the weight wants to stay in the upper end of the forearms (towards the elbows) and not much weight goes into the wrist/hand area. I was informed by my teacher that I need to make use of my triceps in order to press my hands down into the ground, does this seem reasonable? I can't clearly recall if this instruction was given to me with regards to pincha mayurasana or sirsasana...
I've actually practiced a lot of headstands recently, holding downward dog for extended periods as a way to build strength for the headstand, and as a result of this, I often find that I have serious muscle achiness somewhere beneath my shoulder blades (the only way I can describe this more specifically is to say that it is a soreness that begs to be massaged by digging underneath the shoulder blade). Is this normal, are the muscles under there suppose to be worked strongly in this pose, or are they perhaps compensating for some flaw in the way I practice it? Does this muscle have anything to do with the latissimus dorsi?
Thanks for your insight,
sp |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| sp - I just got a magazine from India where BKS talks about keeping children in poses longer.
Sometimes he says he offers them chocolate!  Works for me  |
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Location: London, England |
"Sorry to be so dense, I seem to have taken in more about how not to do headstand which I think I had anyway!"
Hi Ian, that's ok-practising the lifting maeuvres in yoga by using incorrect technique makes it doubly hard to learn this method-you notice the samething happens when we talk about handstands and sun salutes, etc. According to Kottke, it takes 10,000 repetitions for an action to become automatic-now you have to dis-assemble all the muscular contractions that you have been using. Shouldn't take long
I'm not sure how to add to what I've already described-the correction depends on the mistake and the individual-can you post another excellent photo? And don't forget to sharpen your pointy teeth for maximum bat persona
Nick |
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Location: London, England | ian****er - 2007-04-20 10:09 AM
Nick,
By George I think I've got it!
Just one more thing (sorry I watched Columbo a lot in my youth ):
How should I squeeze my glutes? Is there a monkey-in-the-tree analogy I can hold on to here as well? I liked the tree branch one in the last post.
Hi Ian,
Heehee. Most of my students like being told they're monkeys. How to squeeze the glutes? Hmm, that's an interesting one-it comprises a large part of any PT's workouts, because the glutes are often inhibited by back pain, so the hip flexors and hamstrings become hypertonic-adding to the back pain. The abdominal muscles also become weak. So an obvious course of action is to strenghten the abs and gluteal muscles-I use the core strength test to address these muscles, as well as side plank, and a posture called 'bird dog.' These postures are all good functional training for all the lifts of astanga yoga-the core is made invincible, or at least it feels that way.
The problem is that you are doing a pose which requires gluteal inhibtion-otherwise it would tear.
This morning, I did the plank pose with my class, and then slid my feet over the floor and came up into a scorpion. Made everyone laugh I was making the point that the muscles of plank could be used to lift up. So when you are preparing for headstand, try to tighten your core.
If the abdomen is braced, it acts as a scaffold that will stop your pubic bone from collapsing towards your ribs-this makes the legs feel much lighter, and as though you are actually lifting them almost by using the abs as a kind of jack.
Take care
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
You are going to have to define by what you mean by underneath the shoulder blade-to me that refers to the space between the scapula and the ribs, to the general population, it means the inferior border of the scapula. The lats do connect there on their way up to the humerus, and I have felt fatigue in muscle around there, which I believe is down to the attachment to the scapula.
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
'Hi folks, jumping in because I'm interested in finding out if you think I'm doing my sirsasana properly... I'm especially confused about the involvement of the latissimus dorsi, as I don't know much of anything about this muscle. I've looked up images so I now see where it is located.'
Because the insertion of the lat on the arm is a fixed point, contraction of that muscle will then pull the pelvis over the arms, resulting in the legs being pulled away from the floor
'First off, I have no problem whatsoever in lifting my legs upwards, to me that is the easy part. Can I assume that I am therefore using the proper core contraction and bandhas if this lifting is not problematic? '
To a certain extent, yes. But it's very easy to not get as much as you can out of the movement or the posture itself-again, I need a video to tell for sure.
'What proves difficult is maintaining my weight on my arms without putting weight on my head over time. I am currently working on my balance in the pose as practiced without wall support, so I do have an interest in increasing the time that I can stay up in the pose without compromising the proper action of the arms. So here's what happens to me:'
You have given me clues there that your shoulder movement and posture is incorrect. If you go up into this correctly, it's very easy to bring the head off the floor-but obviously, it's more strenuous, but in a good way:-) I would guess that because you used the wall, which stops you over-balancing, you have got used to using the shoulder complex to lift the shoulders up-then the upper traps get tired, then you cannot maintain the head off the floor.
'When I am up in the headstand, I find that I have difficulty distributing my weight evenly on my forearms, it feels as though the weight wants to stay in the upper end of the forearms (towards the elbows) and not much weight goes into the wrist/hand area. I was informed by my teacher that I need to make use of my triceps in order to press my hands down into the ground, does this seem reasonable?'
Sounds reasonable. Not too sure-I don't think the technique I am talking about is widely used-i.e. it's almost unknown. I would have thought, that if you had clasped the hands properly, then stuff should happen further up the arm. To be specific, it feels as though you had grasped a bar above your head with the elbows flexed to about 90 degrees, and you are then pulling yourself towards the hands. As well as extending the elbow, the triceps are also synergists in shoulder extension, so they will be active, as will the biceps, which is responsible for flexing the elbow. This situation, where agonists and antagonists are both contracting, is called co-contraction.
So there are parallels to be drawn between the two movements. There's a similiar thing that happens in the legs called Lombard's paradox, where the hamstrings and the quadriceps both activate when you come to standing from sitting. The quads are knee extensors, and the hamstrings are knee flexors. The hamstrings are active in extending the hip, and the quads for extending the knee. What happens is that the torque created by hamstring contraction cancels out the hip flexion torque that is created by quad activation, and the torque created by the quadriceps, cancels out the flexion moment at the knee that is created by the hamstrings.
This is a very valuable thing to realize I think, because it is a feature of all closed kinetic chain movements, and a lot of what we find difficult in yoga would be made more feasible if we learnt how to co-contract at the appropiate moments-lifting into a handstand, vinyasa, headstand, even shoulderstand.
Take care
Nick
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| Hi Nick,
First off, the location of the achiness I am referring to is between the shoulder blade and the ribs, that can be pushed into with your fingers when the shoulder blade is made to jut out.
As for whether my shoulder and arms are properly positioned, well, I don't know for sure. But my teacher pointed out that this is particularly challenging for me because my shoulders are very crooked. I have a mild scoliosis, and it shows very visibly in the crookedness of my shoulders.
I understand what you are saying about the triceps being automatically activated, but I'm guessing that the instruction I got was to push my hands more firmly down into the ground, so contract my triceps more to achieve this, so that my foundation would be more solid.
I also want to specify that I am not using the wall for support, though I used to. I now practice near the wall, but do not come in contact with it at all. I still have a certain irrational fear of falling out of the pose, so the knowledge that a wall is behind me gives me more confidence, and if I start to fall backwards, I touch a foot to the wall, steady myself, and return to the free standing headstand.
Ultimately, I think my problem is that the muscles that are involved in holding my head off the ground have not yet developped enough endurance to do so for an extended period. I think I basically just need to be patient. I have not been told that there is anything wrong about the way I do my headstand, so I think I should just not worry about it too much and just give it time.
Thanks for your help. sp |
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
Ah-I didn't know about the scoliosis. May I recommend you be particularly careful with headstand? If you were my student, I probably wouldn't let you do it-there's too many good things to do which are much safer.
The muscle you are talking about is maybe anterior serratus, or subscapularis. I would have thought it was anterior serratus which is getting tired-but I'm not surprised it's getting tired with a scoliosis, however mild.
A question-are you considered very mobile? Or even hypermobile? I'm not sure if we have discussed this before. I have come across a number of women who want to take up yoga who have scoliosis, and they are nearly always hypermobile, which I have always linked to the changes in the spine. There are several hypotheses for scoliosis-one is that the flood of hormones in the teenage years loosens up the connective tissue, and the spine loses its alignment as a result.
What I would like to see in schools is the kids being taught exercises to teach them good body posture, and core strength-I wouldn't be surprised if this had a major impact on the incidence, or at least the severity, of scoliosis patients.
I have a wonderful machine at home which allows me to hang upside down (there's that bat thing again-you might seriously consider one of these, go get your doc's ok first if you like.
I'll find the link in a minute-I would like to see your face if you ever tried it-sometimes you see a look of pure astonishment when people get all these signals from their spine which they haven't experienced before-it's great to see
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Here you go:
http://www.backrevolution.com/
Seriously consider this-you have scoliosis for life, so it's not something that's going to get any less useful over time-you wouldn't believe the twists you can get on it-like nothing on earth-I can promise you, there is no yoga postion that does it quite like the back revolution-wish I could see your face when you twist-can you get one and set up multiple cameras?
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Hmmm - now you have me thinking Nick - dangerous! Scoliosis students and hypermobility? I would say in general, no. Although each of the students I can think of do have at least one area that is very open, I am not seeing hypermobile in all the joints. They will be getting more than my usual eagle eye this week and I'll try to report back... |
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Sirsasana
