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| I thought I was trying to do it the Nick way, imagining there was a branch between my hands and pulling, trying to keep my head off the floor. Oh dear, seems like I've got to go back and read it all again. |
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Location: London, England | Hi ian,
it's ok, no lasting damage done 
Nick |
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| purnayoga - 2007-05-09 11:54 AM
Could someone tell me, in 200 words or less please, what the enormous preoccupation with entry into Sirsasana is all about? I've not seen so much pomp and circumstance about an asana entry before. No one is asking "oh my god, how do I lift my foot in Vrksasana" or even "what do I do with my thoracic spine in Setu Bandha".
The effects of the pose are not delivered in the entry itself. What's the deal?
Hey Purna: What R U talking about? Entry into a pose is a very important aspect in Yoga Exercise. It is called Vishesha Kriyaa. You may not find material on it, perhaps. I learnt it from a great Yoga Teacher. Try to do the Headstand with fully stretched legs and and with bent knees. Both of them give quite a different effect. |
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| Nick,
No worries. Is there any way you can draw a picture of what I should be trying to do?
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
Ha, you jest! Me, draw a picture! but it's easy to describe. Your arms in headstand form a pyramid. By clasping the hands, you are making the base of the pyramid smaller. Because of this, the peak of the pyramid is further from the ground-now you can pull your head away from the floor.
Nick |
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| Nick,
Before I pull my head away from the floor, where does it rest? If I clasp my hands, there's less room for it to fit in. Does that mean my head's too big? 
Also, is there anything in the way I'm holding my back that's keeping my feet on the floor?
ian |
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Location: London, England | Hi ian,
Yep, your head's way too big Well, where your head goes is no longer important-it's off the floor and non-weight-bearing, so you can wiggle it around and put it exactly where you want-you can move up into scorpion, if you like. What this should aslo give you an advantage in, is that you will be able to bring the feet closer to your body before you lift up-they are so far away at the moment, that it would take someone of great skill/strength to get them up-your starting point, at the moment, involves wearing a ball and chain, so we need to find ways of getting you more compact before you lift up.
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
I think sorting out your head position will help sort out some of your questions-the forearms will be more vertical, which will push your spine vertically, rather than backwards, as is happening at the moment, and this will also help to turn your pelvis upside down-at the moment it's not quite there. It can't get there partly because of your legs, and again, the leg position would be improved by bringing the head oof the floor.
Nick |
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Location: London, England | "Yes, that's one of the (very few) things that frustrate me with Iyengar Yoga. Sometimes we can spend longer getting into the pose than we actually spend in it....
"
Hi Jonnie,
But at the end of the day, this method actually gets rid of all the preparations you see people making for headstand-there's no neeed for mats/blankets, because you are not supporting your weight on your head. Amazing how many people say they are not supporting weight on their head, and then get a blanket to put under their heads, but that's another story
Nick |
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| Yes, that's why I want the photo.
When you say your head is off the ground, how much in centimetres?
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| Nick - 2007-05-10 12:16 PM
-the forearms will be more vertical, which will push your spine vertically,
Nick
Don't you mean the forearms will be more horizontal?
Edited by jonnie 2007-05-10 6:55 AM
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| Interesting point here. I've printed off all that has been written in reply to my posts re: headstand and I now realise how dense I must have seemed as I missed nearly all the points that were made by Nick and others. 
Does anyone else find it easier to take in what you've read off a page rather than a screen?
All I've got to do now is put it all into practice! Photo coming sometime between now and whenever!
Ian |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Sorry, wrong arm segment-i meant the upper arms will be more vertical-what a fool, sorry.
How far off the floor the head doesn't matter. The head can touch the floor, but as it's not weight-bearing, it doesn't matter. The actual difference will be unique for each individual, and will also change, for example, with the inhale/exhale cycle.
Nick |
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| Cheers Nick, That makes much more sense now.
I had this image of your head being four or five centimetres of the ground.
The way you have now explained it, is the way that Brian Cooper and my Iyengar teacher both teach it. i.e. my head is on the ground, but non weight bearing.
Jonathon |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Phew-no, a few centimetres takes a few lifetimes! Just to make sure your teachers are teaching the same thing-are your palms clasped together, or are they touching the back of your head?
Nick |
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| The fingers are interlocked, the forearms and wrists are perpendicular to the floor. By pushing down on them and lifting from the shoulders, we get the lift to release the head. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
In that case, I would say that the technique is very different. What would be interesting, would be to take some pressure sensors underneath anything that's touching the ground, and find out what proportion of body weight is being borne on that part. I think that you would find that the posture offers some unique benefits when done with the hands clasped tightly. All kinds of goodies get offered
Nick |
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| A couple weeks ago in class, our teacher had us experiment with lifting the head off the floor while in headstand. We were encouraged to allow the feet to touch the wall so as not to make the balance aspect be too much of an issue. By pressing the wrists and forearms into the floor, the shoulders and ribcage can lift away from gravity more efficiently, so that no pressure is felt on the head, which I understood was the main purpose of the exercise, rather than create a huge "lift off" from the floor. Personally, while I understood what was happening in my body and tried to maintain that lightness of my head, my SI would shift and grind, being my weak link in my torso. Having thoracic tightness as well has impeded my holding this posture comfortably as well. But yes, I totally got, even if it was for only a moment or two, how it's "supposed to" feel when the ribcage and shoulders pull the head up away from the floor. I call this being suspended in space by the virtue of the engaged and lifted torso and core. Probably (hopefully!) the same concept all of you here have been referring to just in different words. |
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| I shall go and try it now.... |
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| Sirsana A: The back of my head barely rests in the "snuff box' under the thumbs. I lift with Bandha and hold for 10-25 breath.
Generally, about 2-3 inches off the ground. For Sirsasana B, I think my head lowers more with a little more pressure on the snuff box. I bring my legs down horizontal, hallow my belly, point my toes and let my hips more forward. (this puts more pressure on my arms and head) I find it very challenging.
Sirsana C I lift my chin up and arch my back slightly. This one is very tough in transition. usually I'm wiped out to do this part, but on a good day, yes, I do it.
Finally, If I'm 100% to capacity. I will bring my head down to the snuff box again (still very little weight on the head) and bring my feet down and up three times.
This is the way I was taught to perform Sirsansa.
Eric
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| Sirsana A: The back of my head barely rests in the "snuff box' under the thumbs. I lift with Bandha and hold for 10-25 breath.
Generally, about 2-3 inches off the ground. For Sirsasana B, I think my head lowers more with a little more pressure on the snuff box. I bring my legs down horizontal, hallow my belly, point my toes and let my hips more forward. (this puts more pressure on my arms and head) I find it very challenging.
Sirsana C I lift my chin up and arch my back slightly. This one is very tough in transition. usually I'm wiped out to do this part, but on a good day, yes, I do it.
Finally, If I'm 100% to capacity. I will bring my head down to the snuff box again (still very little weight on the head) and bring my feet down and up three times.
This is the way I was taught to perform Sirsansa.
Eric
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| Maybe so but the duration of entry pales with the duration of the aligned pose.
Thus the referenced "effects" in entry/exit are not the effects of being.
What I was asking about was the preoccupation and almost cult-like focus on entry and exit. Come into the pose with integrity, yes. Come into the pose mindfully, yes. Work to come into the pose properly (be that Iyengar or whomever). But the rampant focus on how am I getting my legs up OVER the focus of alignment and action and effect in the pose I find "Rah d|ck a Lus".
It's over intellectualized.
kulkarnn - 2007-05-09 11:54 AM
purnayoga - 2007-05-09 11:54 AM
Could someone tell me, in 200 words or less please, what the enormous preoccupation with entry into Sirsasana is all about? I've not seen so much pomp and circumstance about an asana entry before. No one is asking "oh my god, how do I lift my foot in Vrksasana" or even "what do I do with my thoracic spine in Setu Bandha".
The effects of the pose are not delivered in the entry itself. What's the deal?
Hey Purna: What R U talking about? Entry into a pose is a very important aspect in Yoga Exercise. It is called Vishesha Kriyaa. You may not find material on it, perhaps. I learnt it from a great Yoga Teacher. Try to do the Headstand with fully stretched legs and and with bent knees. Both of them give quite a different effect.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-05-10 2:31 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi Purna,
Well, I have to agree with you to a certain extent, but would also like to mildly disagree. My chirpractic degree took four years. In that four years, an incredible amount of tuition went into studying the various aspects of cervical anatomy and physiology. It wasn't until the last year that we did any manipulation on the cervical spine-I believe this is fairly standard procedure in chiro colleges. It is because manipulation of the neck, and also bad neck posture, can speed a person's demise, and also deplete their quality of life. So the chiro student learns to treat the neck with almost sacred skill and understanding-at least, this is my experience.
To a certain extent, yoga is self-selecting-if you actually got a representative portion of the population to practice headstand, bearing weight on their cervical spine, I believe the results would be very different than what you might find if you were simply to go to a yoga class and take x-rays of everyone who practiced sirsasana-the people in the yoga class who are not practicing sirsasana have taken themselves out of the equation. And they may have taken themselves out of the equation for a good reason-i.e. sirsasana hurts their neck.
I also can't agree that the method of moving into a posture is of little relevance to the physical outcome of attempting to achieve a posture-maybe I'm twisting your words. every athlete will look at their movement to find out how to throw further, jump higher, run faster. As athletes of the body-mind, we need to learn how to move from A to B, not at the posture itself-good posture is merely proof of good movement.
Take care
Nick |
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| Nick - 2007-05-11 11:31 PM
It wasn't until the last year that we did any manipulation on the cervical spine-I believe this is fairly standard procedure in chiro colleges.
I have always been curious about that.
As a student, how do you actually begin to learn this on real people?
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| yes. I agree fully. But, that applies to the alignment in the pose. There should not be too much intellectualization and cult like focus in the alignmen as well.
purnayoga - 2007-05-10 2:30 PM
Maybe so but the duration of entry pales with the duration of the aligned pose.
Thus the referenced "effects" in entry/exit are not the effects of being.
What I was asking about was the preoccupation and almost cult-like focus on entry and exit. Come into the pose with integrity, yes. Come into the pose mindfully, yes. Work to come into the pose properly (be that Iyengar or whomever ). But the rampant focus on how am I getting my legs up OVER the focus of alignment and action and effect in the pose I find "Rah d|ck a Lus".
It's over intellectualized.
kulkarnn - 2007-05-09 11:54 AM
purnayoga - 2007-05-09 11:54 AM
Could someone tell me, in 200 words or less please, what the enormous preoccupation with entry into Sirsasana is all about? I've not seen so much pomp and circumstance about an asana entry before. No one is asking "oh my god, how do I lift my foot in Vrksasana" or even "what do I do with my thoracic spine in Setu Bandha".
The effects of the pose are not delivered in the entry itself. What's the deal?
Hey Purna: What R U talking about? Entry into a pose is a very important aspect in Yoga Exercise. It is called Vishesha Kriyaa. You may not find material on it, perhaps. I learnt it from a great Yoga Teacher. Try to do the Headstand with fully stretched legs and and with bent knees. Both of them give quite a different effect. |
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Sirsasana
