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back pain after shoulder stand
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nadzinka
Posted 2007-04-30 9:00 PM (#84691)
Subject: back pain after shoulder stand


Hi!
I have been practicing yoga a bit for the past couple of years but recently I started to practice more seriously. For the past couple of weeks I am practicing shoulder stand and Halasana, and it seems I can do these poses alright, however, after doing them I feel sharp backpain for about 5 min but then it goes away. I am getting worried if it is normal, since I keep getting pain for these 2 weeks. I am practicing with the book and I dont have anyone to ask. I think this could be because I am very tall but I dont really know.
Does anyone know if backpains is something that normally happens after these poses?
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-04-30 9:45 PM (#84700 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


No, it is not normal to get the pain you are getting. And, you are not doing the pose with correct technique. And, you are using incorrect resource to learn the pose.
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shalamOM
Posted 2007-04-30 9:51 PM (#84709 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Yes, unfortunately back pain and neck pain frequently do occur after this pose, even if performed with perfect alignment. In fact, I am just now reading a book by a very accomplished yogi who said that this was his favorite pose, but it started giving him SI joint problems and upper back problems. He said he didn't do it for a year and even now if he does it for short periods he gets pain afterwards.

Check your alignment and then if you still have problems either the pose is just not good for you or you need to do a less intense version of the pose, like half shoulderstand or viparita karani. You could also try using a folded blanket under your shoulders if you aren't adverse to using props. Also, only do this pose if you are very warm, either from a warm environment or from having done heating activity previously.

Edited by shalamOM 2007-04-30 9:52 PM
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Posted 2007-05-01 7:36 PM (#84807 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Ain't yoga grand? Much like learning from your book, you'll get a myriad of replies here and they will be similar and not at all alike, all at the same time. Then what will you do?

I'll give you my take, which ultimately may turn out to be between the two others above.

There are several ways in which the human body feeds back relative to what you are doing with and to it. Part of this feedback system is a pain response. The pain response comes in several forms, levels, or degrees. For example an achey pain might indicate stretching of muscle. A sharp pain might indicate excess elasticity demanded on the tendon. Pain in or around the spine might be muscular or it might be structural - that is to say it could be erectors that keep the spine upright or a subluxated vertebra placing load on a nerve root

As a result, it is simply not possible to determine, without much more information, whether the pain you are having is reasonable discomfort from movement or whether it is the body telling you it prefers you do something else.

The pose you are referring to, Sarvangasana, is often done improperly. And by improperly I am referring to the pose that is done flat on the floor in the center of the room. There are a few people who can do the pose this way (flat on the floor). The remainder of humanity should be using a foamy wrapped with a mat or blankets wrapped with a mat. Otherwise the flattening of the cervical curve and demand placed on the nuchal ligament can cause injury; either at the time of the doing or over time.

When the pose is properly aligned and the weight of the pose resides on the elbow, triceps, and rear deltoid, when the student has a sense of how to move the spine into the body, when the spine is healthy to begin with, then there should not be pain in the spine and there certainly should not be pain in the spine for 5 days. Healthy pain feedback in the muscle tissue usually dissipates after about 48 hours.

Students in Purna Yoga are ALL taken up in this pose meticulously and at the wall first until the proper actions for coming away from the wall are present. In this way the students remain safe while receiving the maximum benefit the pose has to offer.

It is also quite possible that Halasna is the pose that is placing load on the thoracic spine (I'm guessing, since you did not mention a where to this spine hurt). Many students round the back (basically doing a forward bend) in an effort to get their feet the the floor. Try Halasana with your head toward a wall and come into the pose with your toes on the wall over your forehead. Even with this, so may not "fall into" the proper actions in Halasana. And this is where the "you need a teacher" bit runs up the flag to see who'll salute.

Back pain, generally speaking is not normal. And by normal I mean it is not a state of homeostasis in the body.

Edited by purnayoga 2007-05-01 7:43 PM
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nadzinka
Posted 2007-05-02 10:20 AM (#84899 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


Thanks a lot for your replies. I know now that at least I should not continue the same way ,and something has to be changed. I will try to find a yoga class suitable for me. It looks like I can not learn it all by myself...

purnayoga, you mention how to do Sarvangasana the right way: "the pose is properly aligned and the weight of the pose resides on the elbow, triceps, and rear deltoid, when the student has a sense of how to move the spine into the body". Does that mean that if my spine is even slightly curved, that might cause problems? I am trying to keep it straight, but sometimes it is getting curved. And also I feel some weight on my neck too, besides the shoulders. I guess this might be a problem, too? The pain I am feeling is not muscular, I feel it sharp in spine, and it feels like it starts somewhere in the upper back and then moves down and then goes away in 5 minutes.

Also, I do not quite understand how to do it at the wall? Where then my hands fit?

Thanks again for all the help!

Edited by nadzinka 2007-05-02 10:25 AM
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OrangeMat
Posted 2007-05-02 12:22 PM (#84928 - in reply to #84899)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


I was going to write out how I practice shoulderstand starting at the wall, but then I found a description while googling that pretty much describes how I do it. I'm curious to hear if Purna has any other instructions on this modification, considering I was never taught shoulderstand this way, just arrived to it organically during my own practice.

From YogaJournal.com (full article is here):

"Rolling up into Sarvangasana from the floor might be difficult at first. You can use a wall to help you get into the pose. Set your blankets up a foot or so from the wall (the exact distance depends on your height: Taller students will be farther from the wall, shorter students closer). Sit sideways on your support (with one side toward the wall) and, on an exhalation, swing your shoulders down onto the edge of the blanket and your legs up onto the wall. Bend your knees to right angles, push your feet against the wall and lift your pelvis off the support. When your torso and thighs are perpendicular to the floor, lift your feet away from the wall and complete the pose. To come down, exhale your feet back to the wall and roll down."

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dwd
Posted 2007-05-18 1:29 PM (#86638 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


Could it be just the fascia 'releasing'?
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Posted 2007-05-18 2:01 PM (#86645 - in reply to #84899)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


The spine is never straight. The spine ships from the factory with three built-in curves; one in the neck or cervical region, one in the middle back or thoracic region, and one in the lower back in the lumbar region. So the concept is stated as "neutral" spine which implies retaining the curves. Since each of these three curves is unique I can;t answer your question about causing problems, keeping it straight, or curving it. Has to be seen in your body by a teacher.

The pose at the wall involves the use of props and it is one of the toughest poses to teach even when student and teacher are in the same room. I cannot possibly instruct you in it over the internet. The props need to be set up just so, the body positioned just so, the hands clasped just so, the shoulder tucked under just so, the hands then placed on the back just so, the feet at the wall just so....

The YJ instructions above neglect to discuss the action with the arms, hands, and shoulders when referencing the pose at the wall. The picture in the image does not indicate enough height for the average practitioner and thus may be misleading. However it is better than guessing.


nadzinka - 2007-05-02 7:20 AM
purnayoga, you mention how to do Sarvangasana the right way: "the pose is properly aligned and the weight of the pose resides on the elbow, triceps, and rear deltoid, when the student has a sense of how to move the spine into the body". Does that mean that if my spine is even slightly curved, that might cause problems? I am trying to keep it straight, but sometimes it is getting curved. And also I feel some weight on my neck too, besides the shoulders. I guess this might be a problem, too? The pain I am feeling is not muscular, I feel it sharp in spine, and it feels like it starts somewhere in the upper back and then moves down and then goes away in 5 minutes.

Also, I do not quite understand how to do it at the wall? Where then my hands fit?

Thanks again for all the help!


Edited by purnayoga 2007-05-18 2:04 PM
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evilnyberg
Posted 2007-05-28 7:31 AM (#87552 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


now, i'm not an expert... but i suffer from lower back pain (which has greatly improved in the years since i started doing yoga!) and used to have some problems with the shoulder stand because of this.

what really helped me come to terms with this asana is a teacher who suggested that i should strive upwards with my legs and feet, rather than simply balancing and letting my spine bear the full weight of my legs. this striving upwards has made the shoulder stand much more comfortable for me and it now feels easier on both my upper and lower back - like each vertebra is given a bit of space, rather than being compacted down by the weight of my legs.

i hope this makes some sense to you, and good luck!

a
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OrangeMat
Posted 2007-05-28 8:08 AM (#87554 - in reply to #86645)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder s


Purna, thanks for your comments on the article I posted. As much as I've gotten excellent instructions for many poses over the couple of years I've been studying with my teachers, this is one pose that I feel has been lacking for me. Probably good then that I would avoid practicing it when it was time to go up in class, it just didn't feel right in my body, and I also didn't know my body as well as I do now (still learning everyday, of course). In fact, the first few times I attempted shoulderstand, I'd get these intense headaches in my forehead and eyes, sort of like sinus pain, if I stayed up for more than 15 seconds or so. Quite scary. With my feet placed at the wall, knees bent, there would be less physical weight on the parts of me that were on the floor (feet dragging down the wall so the hamstrings work to pull me up -- does that make sense?).

Hands, shoulders, feet, all placed properly for each individual body, yes, I totally get that. I'm not familiar with the use of props in this pose other than the blankets underneath and perhaps a strap at the upperarms. One of these days I'll venture over to the local Iyengar studio and see what they can offer me. But in the meantime, I practice bridge to simulate the energetics of shoulderstand. Less in the way of lower body weight (which I've got a lot of) lifted up over my upper body.

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Posted 2007-05-28 11:27 PM (#87636 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Yes it's good. When it is time, please do not do Sarvangasana flat on the floor.
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Bob
Posted 2007-05-31 4:21 PM (#88044 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Guys,
I hope that there is universal method to avoid any injuries in asans and following pain. It is awareness of a witness in each posture and during changing of them. My old teacher advised me this approach when I was young and very inpatient. As all beginners, I acted from my Ego and tried to get a perfect posture. The teacher was absolutely right. I stopped to get any injuries when I started to use this method. Each posture might be kept for long period and it was powerful addition to regular meditation.
May be this will be helpful.


Edited by Bob 2007-05-31 4:22 PM
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juicyg
Posted 2007-06-11 2:17 PM (#89211 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Another minor adjustment that can have a major impact is gently adjusting your neck so that you create space between your cervical spine and the floor. I have a tendency to tuck my chin, and when I lift it just a little, this brings back the natural curve in my neck, and I become more comfortable in the pose.

hth,
Julie
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-06-11 2:20 PM (#89213 - in reply to #88044)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Fantastic. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob - 2007-05-31 4:21 PM

Guys,
I hope that there is universal method to avoid any injuries in asans and following pain. It is awareness of a witness in each posture and during changing of them. My old teacher advised me this approach when I was young and very inpatient. As all beginners, I acted from my Ego and tried to get a perfect posture. The teacher was absolutely right. I stopped to get any injuries when I started to use this method. Each posture might be kept for long period and it was powerful addition to regular meditation.
May be this will be helpful.
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Posted 2007-06-11 9:51 PM (#89245 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Bob could you expound on this "awareness as a witness" concept as you've mentioned it in more thap://e post and it now has piqued my curiosity.
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Posted 2007-07-09 6:05 PM (#91002 - in reply to #89245)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


Since there are hundreds if not thousands of yoga poses, why does anyone need to do a particular pose if that pose causes pain of the type that often leads to injury? I think that shoulderstand and plow are not good for some people no matter how they do them. (Examples being some heavy people, people with some neck or back problems, people with some eye problems, etc.) Even though purna gave excellent detailed advice on how to do shoulderstand, if it causes pain, you are hurting yourself and may be doing permanent damage to your back or neck. I think that if expert instruction doesn't remedy the problem, other poses should be substituted. It is like full lotus. If you cannot bring your knees to the floor in cobbler, you shouldn't even attempt full lotus as you must twist your knees to get your feet up. This will lead to knee injury. If you want to do full lotus, practice cobbler until you have the hip flexibility to do it properly. Then you can do full lotus without risk of injury to your knees. It is the same with shoulderstand. If you don't have a basic problem that will preclude you from doing this asana, work on bridge. I think that asana should be awareness and health in action, not trophies to hang on the wall. As such, you only need to do those poses that are of benefit to you right now and avoid those that are risky to you right now.
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Kaos
Posted 2007-07-11 7:15 PM (#91232 - in reply to #91002)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


jimg - 2007-07-09 6:05 PM

As such, you only need to do those poses that are of benefit to you right now and avoid those that are risky to you right now.




Excellent post, jimg. I fully agree with you. If one can't do a full lotus, then do a half-lotus. If still not possible, better yet to sit on a chair.


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David
Posted 2009-04-17 6:29 PM (#115461 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: Re: back pain after shoulder stand


I agree with purnayoga... there must be involvement of the arms and neck, as well as the core muscles, when doing both Sarvangasana (shoulder stand) and Halasana (plough). You essentially want to activate the shoulders to widen the upper back and flatten the shoulder blades. This will also create space between the shoulders and the neck.

It's also best to activate the front neck muscles, which gently tuck the chin in toward the neck and make it feel like you are lightly pushing the back of the head into the floor.

The above two protect the spine by encouraging length and a neutral position... but just to be clear, it's difficult to know what a neutral position is without having a really good sense of it for yourself or without someone else watching.
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mikel986
Posted 2010-08-09 3:46 PM (#124588 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: Re: back pain after shoulder stand



Member

Posts: 5

Location: nairobi, kenya.
l'm a newbie to yoga, on and off last 3 years, and self-taught from a book :-( stopped doing the headstand-up against the wall-after experiencing upper back pains next day. however no problems with sarvangasana/halasana even though experienced yogi would suggest massive re-alignments to all my poses!
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jimcarter
Posted 2011-04-25 12:10 PM (#208215 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


hey same thing I am also suffering from and the back pain after shoulder stand is increasing I have done the steps as per mentioned but still I pain remains please guide me and would be beneficial with your all suggestions.
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jpg
Posted 2011-04-26 1:18 PM (#208227 - in reply to #208215)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand


1002525
Stop doing shoulderstand!

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Elizabeth_I
Posted 2011-05-16 5:25 AM (#208380 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: Re: back pain after shoulder stand


Member

Posts: 31
25
I guess it's normal but you should ask a professional
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Yogacharyatonmoy
Posted 2011-06-13 7:12 PM (#208608 - in reply to #208215)
Subject: RE: back pain after shoulder stand



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 436
10010010010025
Location: Washington DC
Its better to stop doing shoulder stand if pain ia increasing. There are many yoga poses. Why shoulder stand if it creates problem!
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callofsedona
Posted 2013-12-10 12:53 AM (#211068 - in reply to #84691)
Subject: Re: back pain after shoulder stand



Veteran

Posts: 188
100252525
Location: Louisville, Kentucky,
I think it could be better for you as a physician or an expert on that matter.
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