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 arm bone back?Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Anusara Yoga | Message format |
shalamOM |
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| Many times I've heard anusara instructors say 'arm bones back' which from their explanation just means to lift the heart and bring the femurs into the proper position. They cue students to bring the 'arm bones back' before lifting the arms or during the lift. I've been playing with this recently and I've found that it feels odd when my arms are in urdva hastasana and I pull my arm bones down. If I move my arms in this position I can even hear a disconcerting grinding sound. Conversely, if I have my arms in urdva hastasana and my arm bones are extended up, I can move my arms around very smoothly with no grinding sound. The arm bones back only seems to work in Tadasana, but not in positions where the arm is extended back or overhead (parsvakonasana, half moon pose, urdhva hastasan). | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442      | I have been working with "shoulder bones back" for awhile since this is what is coming back from Pune these days. What I am seeing in my students is that they open the top corners of the chest - the outer tip of the collarbone and just below it where we often have a depression. I can see how this instruction could cause issues with anyone who had problems seating the humerus (that's what you meant, right? Not the femur?) into the shoulder socket, particularly in poses other than tadasana. I am really working with it a lot in myself in moment to moment posture as the injury to my rotator cuff and possibly some habitual movement I have developed to protect it, have created a forward movement of that shoulder. | ||
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| shalamOM |
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| Yes, I meant humerus. It's not that I don't understand the reasoning behind it. It's just that I think when the arm is stretched overhead or rotating (not in Tadasan) it seems natural to 'come out' of the shoulder joint a little. When I've tried to pull the arm bone back in poses such as parsvakonasana it doesn't feel right and can even 'grind'. It seems like a needless prompt. When the chest is open and lifted the shoulders are in the right place anyway. Forward shifting shoulders are really just related to a stooped posture. Or am I wrong? Tell me. | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | Yes, I see what you mean. Actually I see some of my students who appear to have what we would normally think of as pretty "good" posture, but they drop their shoulders forward or fold them inward a bit. I took a really close look at myself when I started to use this instruction as I thought my arm bones were already back enough, but I do see a need for some movement, especially on the injured side. This may be a situation where you need the teacher to look at you specifically, as you may just not need that cue yourself. | ||
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| I cannot speak to an Anusara "arm bones back" instruction. However, what you outline ... If you are weight bearing, as opossed to your example of simply extending the arms overhead, then moving the head of the humerus away from that flimsy thing called a sholder joint heightens the risk of shoulder injury. It leads to dislocations, loose joints, and surgeries in the supra spinatus, infra spinatus, teres minor and subscapularis. This is why so many students receive injury over time from incorrect instruction in Adho Mukha Svanasana. Teachers tell them to rotate the biceps or lift them, which, when not in integrity with the shoulder joint (scapula) is naughty. The humerus and shoulder joint should meet, woo and marry. For safety (and again I often over-assume practitioners desire this when obviously some do not) the humerus draws into its socket and in is the serratus anterior that spreads the shoulder blade ALONG WITH the arm, not the rotation of the arm itself. I do not, however, think of this as an "arm bone back" action. In fact it is not back at all, it is engaged directly with it's surrounding and protecting joint. The whole issue with the shoulders needs to be separated out from shoulder blades. When the shoulder BLADES are moved by the serratus they spread and cling to the rib cage. This actually prevents the pronated shoulders rather than contributing to it. That condition is typically brought on my tight muscles across the uppper chest and poor action in the upper back. In Parsvakonasana, for example, the humerus draws in enough to connect with its joint and then the entire assembly of the humerus and shoulder blade extend away from the outer ankle of the back leg. Many students just do an arm lunge and shoot the humerus away from the ankle which, when the shoulder blade is depressed, is not a healthy action. When the chest is open and lifted (referring to the muscles of the upper chest being open as we know it) the shoulder blades MAY be in the proper resting position but it is the action of the serratus that spreadds them. The action translates to Utkatasana, Sirsasana, Adho Mukha Vrksasana, Chaturanga Dandasana, Pincha Mayurasana, Garudasana, Viranhadrasana I, and Adho Mukha Svanasana. shalamOM - 2007-05-19 6:04 PM Yes, I meant humerus. It's not that I don't understand the reasoning behind it. It's just that I think when the arm is stretched overhead or rotating (not in Tadasan) it seems natural to 'come out' of the shoulder joint a little. When I've tried to pull the arm bone back in poses such as parsvakonasana it doesn't feel right and can even 'grind'. It seems like a needless prompt. When the chest is open and lifted the shoulders are in the right place anyway. Forward shifting shoulders are really just related to a stooped posture. Or am I wrong? Tell me. Edited by purnayoga 2007-05-19 11:15 PM | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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purnayoga - 2007-05-19 11:12 PM The action translates to Utkatasana, Sirsasana, Adho Mukha Vrksasana, Chaturanga Dandasana, Pincha Mayurasana, Garudasana, Viranhadrasana I, and Adho Mukha Svanasana. Question for you Purna: which of the above listed asanas would you say would be the best for learning the feeling of this action? By "best", I mean easiest to access for someone who is new to understanding actions of the body (engagement, plugging in of a bone into its socket, etc.) as opposed to movements. Hope I made my question clear. I would think it's a bit more accessible with garudasana, just because I've experienced it that way. We did spend some time in class a couple weeks ago trying to learn the action you describe with parsvakonasana, and while I understood it intellectually, I had a tough time experiencing it with my right shoulder (the side I had a procedure on several years back). I'm not asking for help in experiencing it myself, I'm asking from a teaching point of view. ShalamOM: Personally, I don't particularly care for that instruction, but I have no frame of reference for it yet, having not officially studied Anusara yet. I expect that once my immersion starts in the fall, I'll learn all the other principles of that style, so that that particular instruction will make sense in the context of all the rest of the instructions. I'm guessing that's the missing piece here, that this cue taken out of context has a great possibility for misinterpretation. But I wouldn't jump to saying it's a "bad" cue just because of that. I would just say I don't know enough yet to understand how to apply that cue. | |||
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| OrangeMat |
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Another thought: in my beginners class yesterday, I instructed the students to widen their hands apart from each other when in utkatasana, to encourage the shoulderblades to move in and down the back better. Nothing complicated, they all understood that, the arms all automatically got plugged into their sockets a bit better and the chests all broadened without the shoulderblades causing the upper midback to compress. I think it would be in this position that the "arm bones back" instruction would be cued, yes? Once you're plugged in and broadened, front and back of the body, the upper arms can be encouraged to move toward the back of the body. Given my shoulder history, that's too intense a movement (or rather, action) for my body, which is why I don't try to force that. But yes, I think I understand the purpose of the cue now. It's a shortcut. Be careful. I take class with a teacher who's forever trying to squeeze my arms together and back when we're in urdhva hastasana. Many times I do wonder why I even take her class! Not the point here.... the point is that many times being encouraged to make the right shape puts you into the proper position for the action required, because teaching the action independent of the shape is very complicated for many students to grasp. I may be very wrong, but I think this is one of those times. | |||
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| Adho Mukha from the list here. At the wall, ardha uttanasana (hands on the wall, arms straight). The action is present in Garudasana and easier with just the amrs in Garudasana in Virasana. But it's hard to actually teach, show, demo because it is difficult to show the improper action (then the proper). The less weight-bearing the better. Ardha Sirsasana can be used to see/find it as well but more complex. OrangeMat - 2007-05-20 3:07 AM purnayoga - 2007-05-19 11:12 PM The action translates to Utkatasana, Sirsasana, Adho Mukha Vrksasana, Chaturanga Dandasana, Pincha Mayurasana, Garudasana, Viranhadrasana I, and Adho Mukha Svanasana. Question for you Purna: which of the above listed asanas would you say would be the best for learning the feeling of this action? By "best", I mean easiest to access for someone who is new to understanding actions of the body (engagement, plugging in of a bone into its socket, etc.) as opposed to movements. Hope I made my question clear. I would think it's a bit more accessible with garudasana, just because I've experienced it that way. We did spend some time in class a couple weeks ago trying to learn the action you describe with parsvakonasana, and while I understood it intellectually, I had a tough time experiencing it with my right shoulder (the side I had a procedure on several years back). Edited by purnayoga 2007-05-20 3:55 PM | |||
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| omjohnnyom |
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| I've been practicing Anusara for about once a week with a "Anusara Influenced" teacher for about a year and a half and have been to workshops with Jamie Allison and Christy Barnett. I can't remember hearing "Arm bones back." What I hear a lot of is a.) "shoulders up towards the ears and back" or b.) "side body long and integrate the shoulder blades." And I hear this before even starting to move the arms into the picture perfect posture. Phrase a. would do what I think you want, avoid the grinding. So would phrase b., but it's a little harder to understand what's being said. My teachers have made it a point to demonstrate (complete with sound effects) that taking the shoulders up before activating the rhomboids and integrating the shoulders onto the back removes some of the constrictions so the shoulders can more easily move back. But don't take my word for it, just as I've not taken my teachers word for it. Nor can I trust what I remember during a class. What I can trust is what is written in the Anusara teachers training manual. I don't trust it because it's what John Friend says, but because in my experience it works for me. I got it about 4 months ago and it has really clarified a lot what I hear in class and helps me distinguish what is Anusara and what is from the teachers experience. The manual is available on Amazon and the Anusara web site and no, I don't have any vested interest in you purchasing said manual. In the manual you will be able to read about the loops and spirals that, for me at least, was so hard to understand from class. So, it's not just "arm bone back," but hopefully, "active feet, shins forward, top of the thighs back, tail bone scoops down, kidneys puff, shoulders up and back, ears over shoulders, NOW stay integrated and raise the arms overhead while inhaling." Don't take this as Anusara instruction, because I am not a certified Anusara instructor, but maybe it's close. Now if an instructor spotted someone that had lost the integration and the energy was spilling out their forward arm bones, maybe their correction for that person would be arm bones back or shoulders back. I hope that helps. It is commendable that you are questioning the instructions given to you and seeing how they work in your own body. I try to respect what my body is telling me and not so much what my crazy little ego mind tells me. Peace and Love, --John This is my first post! | |||
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