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| Yin Yoga Is not considered to be Yoga?
Many reasons are there?their websites claims they can performed after eating too,.. in all their postures maximum are front arch spine,which makes persons to get into back pain.
The persons gets backpain because of Yin Forward bending postures...
In All HATHA Yoga If your Back Bone is Straight then only You can achieve the Nadis to regulate upto brain otherwise if we arch forward means the spine we cannot achieve this.
Please Put your suggestions Dont hesitate to share your information..Lots of research have been done.we like to share in coming messages.....feel free to discuss..help the people to free from injury.Teachers Your suggestions please.....
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| Interesting points.
I have never actually physically practised Yin Yoga, though always assumed it was the same as 'restorative Yoga'.
I think it was Gordon/Purna who commented a while ago that Yin Yoga did not usually focus on alignment, which if true is likely to cause ligament damage to the spine over time.
However, holding poses over a longer period of time, with alignment (and the use of appropriate props) is ok.
Jonathon
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| I wouldn't say restorative and yin yoga are the same, no. Yin yoga is about stretching the connective tissue, or at least that's my uninformed understanding of it. Restorative is not about stretching anything. Restorative is about providing support for the body so much that all aspects of the self can let go, thereby reducing stress. Restorative is about deep relaxation. "Advanced savasana" was how Judith Lasater jokingly called it. We did not study yin yoga per se in my training, though we did talk about the yin vs. yang aspects of asana practice. Personally, having hypermobility in my joints and ligaments that remained overly lax after having children, this is not a practice for me. From my (again, uninformed) understanding of Bikram, I would expect the same tendencies would occur there, which is why, in spite of my curiosity as to the wide-appeal, I've stayed away. Heh, so maybe I am more informed than I thought.  |
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| jonnie - 2007-05-31 11:49 AM
I have never actually physically practised Yin Yoga, though always assumed it was the same as 'restorative Yoga'.
Hi OM,
Yes, I think they ARE different. My post is not clear. I meant that I thought they were the same until Gordon corrected me...
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| jonnie - 2007-05-31 8:01 AM jonnie - 2007-05-31 11:49 AM I have never actually physically practised Yin Yoga, though always assumed it was the same as 'restorative Yoga'. Hi OM, Yes, I think they ARE different. My post is not clear. I meant that I thought they were the same until Gordon corrected me... No, you were clear. I just felt the need to elaborate! |
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| Then we are on the same page then (as usual  )
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| i suppose i can toss my hat into this ring a bit. while in NZ, i was asked to teach Yin Yoga, so i took a few yin yoga classes while here (which were a completely different "style" of yin) and i read both Paul Grilley's and Biff Mithoeffer's books on the topic.
the books assert that these postures are to be practiced without any muscular effort in order to allow the sinew to stretch and thereby increase flexibility.
now, what i learned in anatomy and from my osteopath friends is that when the tendons and ligaments stretch, there's no shortening them back up--and overstretched ones cause pain. the way that they get overstretched is if they are stretched without muscular contractions to support the muscle and tendons that are stretching. the alternative is that if muscles get too strong too quickly, then the tendons are too tight, and are either going to tear, or going to tear at that top later of their attachment in the bone (like shin splints) and thereby cause pain.
the real risk or danger of yin yoga, in my opinion, is that you're taking a body with major muscle imbalances and tightnesses--with some muscles pulling too much on tendons, and other tendons already being too loose for the muscle to which they are attached--and you're then putting them into a position that would stretch these tendons more--some of which do not need to be stretched, others of which do need to be stretched, but only at the same rate as the muscle that they're attached to.
the real crux of the flexibility is in the strength of the alternative muscle group to support the joints and tendons while the other muscle stretches. it's also very important that as muscles strengthen or stretch, that the tendons do so also at a consistent rate to avoid tears or over stretching--both of which cause pain.
Now, this is not to say that there isn't necessarily a place for Yin yoga. both of the books mention that the authors had practiced yoga in a "yang style" such as astanga or bikram or what have you for a number of years before 'discovering' yin yoga or the passive stretching process. this makes sense. it could be that muscles were overstrong (in both directions such as quads and hamstrings) and that the tendons were not getting as much stretch as they might have needed. and thus, a yin approach might be functional.
my husband compared this, htough, to some weight training stuff. he says that there are some things that very advanced practicioners can do without injury because they're so advanced. they are not movements taught to 'newbies' but only taken on by individuals when they think/feel that it's right and necessary for them. these movements are out there, and in general no one would say "you should add these to your weight training routine" because the risk of injury is very, very high. But, there are people who do add it to their routine after many, many, many years of practice because they know their body so well that they can sense the difference between when the movement is giving benefit vs when it is giving injury.
i think the same is true of yin yoga. for the experienced practitioner, certain aspects of yin yoga can be particularly helpful. it is only helpful because they know when they are moving into injury and when they are not. a beginner cannot know this--largely because they're coming to the practice with a number of modest to severe injuries already and do not have the body awareness to discern what is correct and incorrect in forms of alignment for them while in a posture.
so, i think that yin yoga should be treated with a measure of caution. when i taught the yin yoga classes, i simply did deep or extreme modifications of postures from the krishnamycharia lineage. i decided that this was more appropriate and effective for the clients in the room. i taught from my experience and knowledge, rather than following the books.
i do believe, though, that it would be beneficial for me to take a yin yoga training to ask questions about this. i assume that those at the top are more aware of the anatomical things that i am, or at least have a deeper or different understanding than i do--one that the books do not mention or speak to. essentially, i have lots of questions. and the only way to get answers is to get training. so, perhaps i will.
anyway, that's my take on it. the long and short: not for beginners; might have a place in the advanced practitioners tool box. |
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| ....makes sense to me.
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| yogaresearch - 2007-05-30 10:46 PM
Yin Yoga Is not considered to be Yoga?
Many reasons are there?their websites claims they can performed after eating too,.. in all their postures maximum are front arch spine,which makes persons to get into back pain.
The persons gets backpain because of Yin Forward bending postures...
In All HATHA Yoga If your Back Bone is Straight then only You can achieve the Nadis to regulate upto brain otherwise if we arch forward means the spine we cannot achieve this.
Please Put your suggestions Dont hesitate to share your information..Lots of research have been done.we like to share in coming messages.....feel free to discuss..help the people to free from injury.Teachers Your suggestions please.....
Greetings friend,
Welcome to the forum. Your statements about Yin yoga may be accurate in your experience, but it is often difficult to be accurate about the whole from looking at it's individual parts. My training is in Svaroopa Yoga, a restorative style that relies on gravity in aligned propped postures to increase internal consciousness of chronically tonic (tight) areas of the body, and consequent release over time. Each posture, in my experience, was precisously aligned with adjustments to each posture a central part of teaching. This style of restorative yoga did not emphasize excessive forward bending, or hip closing postures. On the contrary, we are advised to do no more than 3 hip closers before using a hip opening posture. Sessions are always concluded with hip opening postures. We spent so much of our waking hours bending froward into our demands that attention must be paid to opening into extension.
Jonnie and OM, I can't expand without some research on any differences between Yin and Restorative yoga. I use them interechangeably, but perhaps without full insight.
ZB, I would point out that anatomically the muscles and all their connective tissue holding elements are supported by a tough fiberous layer of fascia that constitutes the real restraining force in the body. Injury to muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc. are also injury to the fascia, often with fascia and muscle injury 'tacking' together to form chronically tonic areas. The practice of Rolfing deals exclusively with the release of this tacking of muscle to fascia. It is really the fascia that goes through plastic reformation (assuming of new position from static lengthening over time) and the muscles and connective tissues consequently allowed greater ranges of motion. Joints will find their proper balancing positions and garner strength to maintain health in such balance, given the chance. Resting, aligned postures move in this direction.
More to be said in this regard, when time allows....
Michael |
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| my experience with svaroopa yoga is limited, but i find it's process wholly different from the yin yoga practices that i find the grilley/mithoeffer books. i find that the whole process is more gentle, with special attention to alignments more closely related to the krishnamycharia alignments.
the fascia is also definately at issue. the yin yoga classes that i took here locally focus on the fascia in the first part of the class before moving into the various postures (which are more akin to the svaroopa alignments). in these classes, they use foam rollers and tennis balls to massage and loosen the fascia all over the body. it was really fascinating. some of the movements were quite difficult, honestly, but it was really effective.
it is also interesting that you mention rolfing. i just had my first taste of rolfing while in NZ and i cannot say enough good things about it. it did amazing things for my body on so many different levels. i experienced my yoga practices (and therefore teaching) in completely different ways than i ever have before. the release of the fascia was unbelieveable.
currently, i'm seeking a rolfer or hellerworker locally. i absolutely love the work. i find it definately important! |
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| Please let me know what you mean by "Yin Yoga"? It is interesting that you call it Yoga and then say it is not considered Yoga. Then I can give my input.
yogaresearch - 2007-05-31 1:46 AM
Yin Yoga Is not considered to be Yoga?
Many reasons are there?their websites claims they can performed after eating too,.. in all their postures maximum are front arch spine,which makes persons to get into back pain.
The persons gets backpain because of Yin Forward bending postures...
In All HATHA Yoga If your Back Bone is Straight then only You can achieve the Nadis to regulate upto brain otherwise if we arch forward means the spine we cannot achieve this.
Please Put your suggestions Dont hesitate to share your information..Lots of research have been done.we like to share in coming messages.....feel free to discuss..help the people to free from injury.Teachers Your suggestions please.....
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| Hi zb,
I started my body work training with Rolfing about 35 years ago and have used it in my work since. Now it even flavors my yoga practice and teaching. As I mentioned, the restorative poses of Svaroopa address the fascia and it's ability to 'plastically reform.' A little more time is needed in posture than usual, perhaps, with postures usually lasting at least 2 minutes. The first experience with Rolfing is usually pretty dramatic for patients, but without fairly regular excursion into the new levels of movement, the fascial 'plastically reforms' back to it's daily ranges of motion. As Ida Rolf, MD, said, "Life is movement." Without it, we freeze into our increasingly static relationships to gravity. It is here that the restorative postures, performed daily, enable us to explore and continue using new ranges of motion, and subsequent improvements in health and quality of life.
I really don't know what the original poster was referring to....
Michael |
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| Om
Will u please tell me that which style of teaching yoga is actually yoga.
Astanga? Viniyasa? Hot Yoga? or others.
Shanti
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Expert Yogi
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| It is all yoga. Study which ever style seems to suit you best. Or try many until you find the right one for you. |
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| for something to be "actually yoga" it focuses on the spiritual aspects that yoga develops/brings. the rest are styles or forms of 'hatha yoga.' they're all capable of being 'real' and being 'not real' depending upon the focus.
dmbones:
true enough. i use some of the svaroopa movements (the 'magic 5' five is it?) with longer holds--for myself and in classes because i do find that it does good work. iyengar often uses holds that are even longer than 2 minutes--at 3-5 minutes per posture. i've also taught with this. one of the yin classes that i taught in NZ i taught only 3 postures--downward dog (working between down dog and child's pose to rest), cat stretches (also called cat-cow), and the basic lunge (anjenayasana 2). I worked DD for 45 minutes, cat stretches for 20 and lunge for 20. then, we did 5 minutes spinal twisting (2.5 per side) and 10 of savasana (yes, class ran over time).
it was really amazing to teach--and people really 'learned' the postures in great detail. it's actually a "legendary" class in that area now. LOL! but, it did a lot of work.
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| Any style of practicing Yoga with an aim to train the mind to become perfectly peaceful and then later attain spiritual realization is Yoga. If the practice contains only physical exercises without this aim, then it is Yoga based physical exercise. If the practice contains stress relief work, or therapeutic work or even health work, then it is Yoga based stress relief, health or therapy. It is the aim which decides whether the practice can be called Yoga.
sanj - 2007-06-03 11:00 AM
Om
Will u please tell me that which style of teaching yoga is actually yoga.
Astanga? Viniyasa? Hot Yoga? or others.
Shanti
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| zoebird - 2007-06-03 8:09 AM
dmbones:
true enough. i use some of the svaroopa movements (the 'magic 5' five is it?) with longer holds--for myself and in classes because i do find that it does good work. iyengar often uses holds that are even longer than 2 minutes--at 3-5 minutes per posture. i've also taught with this. one of the yin classes that i taught in NZ i taught only 3 postures--downward dog (working between down dog and child's pose to rest), cat stretches (also called cat-cow), and the basic lunge (anjenayasana 2). I worked DD for 45 minutes, cat stretches for 20 and lunge for 20. then, we did 5 minutes spinal twisting (2.5 per side) and 10 of savasana (yes, class ran over time).
it was really amazing to teach--and people really 'learned' the postures in great detail. it's actually a "legendary" class in that area now. LOL! but, it did a lot of work.
Hi ZB,
I'm grateful to Rama Berch for this synthesis which is Svaroopa. Already, in just my first seven years with it, hundreds of people are practicing that may or may not have taken up more aggressive forms. And that's just from my small efforts. It's very helpful stuff.
It's the Magic Four usually, but you may have added in a sitting (supported) side-bend. Here's Rama in the Magic Four:
http://www.theyogaspot.com/PDF%20Files/Rama%20Yoga%20international%20article.pdf
Michael |
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| Neel makes a valid point but I have one addition to his comments.
Within yoga itself there is great debate (in India) relative to the "conflicting" theories put forth in the Sutras and Hatha Yoga Pradipika. In the HYP it is postulated that one must work the body first and then the mind. In the sutras of Patanjali it is the opposite; work the mind first and the body will follow.
One can see that if a student is following one or the other then there might be a different pursuit of "yoga" based on that connection.
So in Neel's first sentence this is a position reinforced by Patanjali and Raja Yoga, as he omits any reference to a physical practice (asana). So this is accurate from that perspective but may be less so or incomplete for those who have studied and/or subscribe to the works of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika.
kulkarnn - 2007-06-03 12:20 PM
Any style of practicing Yoga with an aim to train the mind to become perfectly peaceful and then later attain spiritual realization is Yoga. If the practice contains only physical exercises without this aim, then it is Yoga based physical exercise. If the practice contains stress relief work, or therapeutic work or even health work, then it is Yoga based stress relief, health or therapy. It is the aim which decides whether the practice can be called Yoga. |
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| Hey Purna: See my comments below.
purnayoga - 2007-06-03 9:30 PM
Neel makes a valid point but I have one addition to his comments.
Within yoga itself there is great debate (in India ) relative to the "conflicting" theories put forth in the Sutras and Hatha Yoga Pradipika. In the HYP it is postulated that one must work the body first and then the mind.
===> That appears so. But, HYP does not insist that Body must be trained first. Actually, as against surprise to many, HYP is a path for average who can start with body, train the body a lot, and then get into mental aspects with the time. HYP states right from the verse 1 that I am giving this knowledge to get into Rajayoga. Later, towards the end, it states, if the Rajayoga did not start using Hathayoga, the Hathayoga practice is futile. Also, it is not true that HYP trains the body only ignoring the mental aspect.
In the sutras of Patanjali it is the opposite; work the mind first and the body will follow.
===> That is not true. In PYS, if the mind is trained, nothing is to be done to the body as given in the last three limbs which are set apart from the first five limbs. The first five limbs actually work on the bdoy: kayendriyashuddhirashuddhikshayaatapasaH... body and senses are purified (made healthy ) by the practice of tapas. etc.
One can see that if a student is following one or the other then there might be a different pursuit of "yoga" based on that connection.
So in Neel's first sentence this is a position reinforced by Patanjali and Raja Yoga, as he omits any reference to a physical practice (asana ).
So this is accurate from that perspective but may be less so or incomplete for those who have studied and/or subscribe to the works of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika.
===> Not true. What I am stating is: If the practice is done of physical exercises ignoring the aim of mental practice, then it is NOT yoga. But, if the same is done using the aim of mental practice, it is Yoga.
kulkarnn - 2007-06-03 12:20 PM
Any style of practicing Yoga with an aim to train the mind to become perfectly peaceful and then later attain spiritual realization is Yoga. If the practice contains only physical exercises without this aim, then it is Yoga based physical exercise. If the practice contains stress relief work, or therapeutic work or even health work, then it is Yoga based stress relief, health or therapy. It is the aim which decides whether the practice can be called Yoga. |
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| I see. |
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| Hi Neel,
I actually shared Purna's understanding on the difference between PYS and HYP.
You have raised some very interesting points for me to consider.
I need to reread your post a few times to formulate my questions.
Jonathon
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| I think their is something wrong with the correct understanding of PYS.
Patanjali very clearly mentioned how to achieve highest goal of yoga in the very first chapter. But first chapter is for those who are really intellectual. Those who can understand only by reading Abhayasa vairagyabhyam tannirodha. But for a normal person it is not easy to understand. That's why in Sadana pada he mentioned that easy and practical practices which can fulful Abhaya and vairagya. Abhaya for what-----so it is of the external five means first five parts and vairagya develops itself when we start internal trip throu last three.
His approach is so clear that he didnot mentioned to start with Yamas and then go towards Asana. Infact u can start from Asana also. where ever important patanjali mentioned for necessary stepping. like pranayama after asana.
If we are asking for the approach of HP. My understanding is that, getting inspiration from his guru and PYS, the author clarified the practical aspect of yoga as well as author gives more practical understanding of yoga (Patanjali's yoga). Studing sersiously and I didnot find any big different between HYP and PYS. Infact HYP is the easy and practical understanding of few concepts of PYs.
Om Shanti
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| Dear Sanj: I could not exactly relate your response to the past posts here. But, that may be my lack of time and comprehension. Please see my immediate comments on your post, without considering what is happening in the previous posts.
sanj - 2007-06-26 1:48 AM
I think their is something wrong with the correct understanding of PYS.
===> What is the misunderstanding specifically?
Patanjali very clearly mentioned how to achieve highest goal of yoga in the very first chapter. But first chapter is for those who are really intellectual. Those who can understand only by reading Abhayasa vairagyabhyam tannirodha.
===> The entire PYS 4 chapters are an integrated text (though some believe the 4th was added later. Whether it was added or not, it is still perfectly integrated with the rest. This is same as added verses of Bhaja Govindam by disciples of Shree Shankaracharya.) It is not that first chapter is for intellectuals and rest for less intellectuals. The first chapter gives the understanding of the result (goal, a term used by you) at one level. Second chapter gives the method to achieve that goal, going to third chapter slightly with results which shall ensue during that practice. Yoga Sutras of Patanjali is mainly a Practice of Yoga and not the result. Result is described less than practice.
But for a normal person it is not easy to understand. That's why in Sadana pada he mentioned that easy and practical practices which can fulful Abhaya and vairagya. Abhaya for what-----so it is of the external five means first five parts and vairagya develops itself when we start internal trip throu last three.
His approach is so clear that he didnot mentioned to start with Yamas and then go towards Asana. Infact u can start from Asana also. where ever important patanjali mentioned for necessary stepping. like pranayama after asana.
===> I agree that there is no stepping in the first five limbs, except asana before pranayama. However, aasana in PYS is not Hatha Asanas. It is only a stable and comfortable pose for pranayama and meditation. Therefore aasana limb automatically precedes the last three limbs.
If we are asking for the approach of HP. My understanding is that, getting inspiration from his guru and PYS, the author clarified the practical aspect of yoga as well as author gives more practical understanding of yoga (Patanjali's yoga). Studing sersiously and I didnot find any big different between HYP and PYS. Infact HYP is the easy and practical understanding of few concepts of PYs.
Om Shanti
===> HP is written long after the PYS when the health problems were more dominent than PYS times. Therefore, the health benefits are emphasized in HP and not in PYS which directly emphasizes mind. Also, HP aims and Rajayoga and thus PYS is a more Classical Text of Yoga and HP is a manual which points to Rajayoga including giving that knowledge within itself, thus making it an important text. But, with the advent of time, no other text has replaced PYS as the Classical Yoga Text as it is succint, comprehensive, and fantastically arranged by a person who knows the Sanskrit language extremely well (yogena chittasya padena vaachaam....).
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Yoga research-Yin Yoga-wrong?
