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| Namaste, I would be grateful for other teachers views on how this posture is best performed by students with kyphosis. I have a lady who is very flexible in her ham strings and hips so she can pivot on the hip really easy, however she cannot perform the extension because of the curvature in her thoracic spine, her chest just about touches the legs but the spine is very rounded. I was wondering about having her work more on an extended forward bend, and leave out the full bend, *(she likes the feeling of her ffbend ) how would you appraoch this?
thanx |
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| I shall meet an experienced teacher (meaning who has seen many backs coming back to back!) and show him/her exactly what is going on.
raquel - 2007-07-16 8:57 AM
Namaste, I would be grateful for other teachers views on how this posture is best performed by students with kyphosis. I have a lady who is very flexible in her ham strings and hips so she can pivot on the hip really easy, however she cannot perform the extension because of the curvature in her thoracic spine, her chest just about touches the legs but the spine is very rounded. I was wondering about having her work more on an extended forward bend, and leave out the full bend, *(she likes the feeling of her ffbend ) how would you appraoch this?
thanx |
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Expert Yogi
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| raquel - a good way for anyone to work on paschimottanasana is to try it lying on the floor. Lie on your back and put a strap around your feet. Keeping the back, buttocks and head on the floor, bring the legs toward you - straight, of course. This gives an idea of how nice and long the back should feel in the pose. Then do the pose the usual way (with the strap no matter if you can reach your feet or not) , keeping that length. Iyengar teachers spend a lot of time in the "urdhva mukha" position for forward bends (essentially dandasana for this pose) to get an idea of the lift and length required to make a good forward bend. "You must ascend (the upper body) in order to descend (into the full pose)" is our guideline. Have fun!  |
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| thanx for that neel, call me blonde, but I am not quite sure what you mean by that quote, I am always learning from my students and this is how experience is made isnt it ? ! !
tousist, thanx for your suggestions, I will try this method, all my students have pretty good alignment but this lady just cannot physically extend her upper back, she has made improvements, with both yoga and pilates but still has a long way to go before her spine cmes into alignment, the extended forward bend has such a different quality to it, she says she likes the relaxing effects of the posture when she goes all the way down, but it seems to me she is playing into her inbalance. Have you ever known a kyphotic student realigning the spine back to its normal shape?
yours in yoga Raquel x
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| Blonde: I apologize. I did not realize you were a teacher and the problem was with your student. Also, my 'quote' was made to indicate only experienced teacher,but now I feel it has many humorous sides. Anyway, the solution to your problem is: Doing backbends. If you wish to know more, you have to meet me.
raquel - 2007-07-16 11:24 AM
thanx for that neel, call me blonde, but I am not quite sure what you mean by that quote, I am always learning from my students and this is how experience is made isnt it ? ! !
yours in yoga Raquel x
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Expert Yogi
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| I have not had kyphotic students who have rehabbed themselves back to "straight" but I have had personal experience with reducing lordosis with a combination of yoga and intense bodywork. I don't think I could have done it without the extra help from Hellerwork (Rolfing). I have read that famous yoga teacher Vanda Scaravelli had a lot of kyphosis in her day-to-day posture, but in her poses, it completely disappeared. How does this student do in savasana? Does she need a lot of support or can she lie flat? That would indicate to me whether or not the flexibility in the spine and spinal muscles was there or not. If she has fusions of vertebrae or bone spurs, ert., it may be too late to get it back. Let us know how she is doing! |
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| Thanx neel I thought it was a joke you was making! When my student does backbends she has a tendency to not be able to lengthen enough in her thoracic spine, and so the compression goes to the lower back, I always urge her to take it easy but she is quite rajastic in her approach to yoga, I give her all the usual instuctions, - lift rib cage awy from hips, lengthen front body and lift up through inner body etc but she just cannot physically compress the upper spine in. this is why I thought she may be better off just focusing on the extension more ( the problem is she needs the cooling aspects of relaxing forwards) She has been to a chiropractioner, and there is no fusion of the spine, the problem is she can get her abs on her thigh, but her spine is still very rounded. chest caved in.
In savasana she needs a block under her head and enjoys relaxing in supta badokonasana. last week we did wide leg stretch against the wall she couldnt hold it for long because rather than it being a relaxing experience it was a painful one. What is rolfing is it similar to pilates? She practices this with me as I advised her that it would greatly enhance her yoga practice and benefit her spine, but she doeant like it as much as yoga and is always skiving from the class !
Her favourite practice is ashtanga based but are all the up face dogs really good for her, Im worried about her compressing her lumber. I keep encouraging her to do my slower paced hatha yoga classes so she can take her time
thanx for taking the time to give advice yours in yoga raquel x |
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| I agree with Neel here.
She'll have to learn to engage uddiyana doing forward bending. Sounds like she is just completely letting it go...If it is really "bad" Put your hand on the crown of her head and say "push."
However, I would not rush her to straighten her back. It is not necessary. I think this constant straightening the back thing is way over-rated. You want to bring length to the waist and low belly, but the back isn't straight to begin with! Bring her to nose to knee, then chin to knee. Then you can push on her shoulders if she is ready to squash.
So, I would let her round her back and gradually work with other postures. I"m thinking Uttana Padasana, Navasana, parsvottanasana, urdhva dhanurasana should help.
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| hey! i was going to recommend tourist's way. i rarely work paschimottanasana because it is so tough for so many. we work standing forward bend (uttanasana) and we work it reclining, and we work dandhasana.
my poor peeps, they have such tight hamstrings and backs. |
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| Unless she can do shavasana flat on the ground, her chances of doing NON Rounded Paschimmattanasana are unrealistic. My feelings are: You give her your bit and let her do what she pleases. She is in charge. Do not sweat on her too much. Only good Yoga Student can get a good Yoga Instruction from a good Yoga Teacher. A good Yoga Teacher must not waste energy on a non good Yoga Student too much. |
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Expert Yogi
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| http://www.rolf.org/rolfer/index.htm
http://www.hellerwork.com/overview.html
They are both deep tissue work (NOT massage - but that is the closest approximation) that works the fascia of the muscles and creates often permanent change in the body.
With the mental picture I have of this student, up dog would not be a pretty sight, but with proper actions and coaching, this may be the way to go since it is a backbend and could begin to make the changes she needs. Keep us posted! |
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| Can the OP clarify soemthing for me. Does the student in question have a kyphotic spine or is she just rounding in Paschimotansana? |
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| thanx everyone for your advice it has given me somthing to think about,
Purnayoga, --she has a kyphotic, lordotic spine. which is quite severe |
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| So you are saying the student has both a hump back and an abnormal amount of curvature in the lumbar spine, which some refer to as sway back?
If that is the case then I would not do standard forward bending poses with this student. She would warrant individual attention (private sesssions), therapeutics, or, at very least, modification of many poses to accomodate the current nature of her spine. |
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| I do my best, but there are other students that need help too and she doesnt have the money for private tuition.
In up face dog for instance im sure she must be compressing the lumber but she says it feels fantastic. Rolling is a problem because she bruises her back, I keep suggesting that she brings a thick towel for padding or that she miss it out, but she feels as if she has to do it towel or no towel. She loves to do the plough and this posture must surely be playing into her imbalance, I give her alternatives but shes adamant to do it.
She loves vinyasa classes, I am slowly getting her more into hatha classes as they are more suitable, at least I cover myself by making the suggestions. x |
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| A good Yoga Teacher must not waste energy on a non good Yoga Student too much.
thanks for this neel. i had an interesting experience yesterday, and this speaks to that. it's helped me understand a new method/approach.  |
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| Neel-I like what you said, too. Quite a bit of the things you say rattle around in my head and stick. Thanks.
Edited by Kym 2007-07-17 12:06 PM
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| We, as teachers, can only offer what we have. You can advise the student but you are not living their lives and as such should be cautious about being overly attached to the situation.
It sounds as though you've done your part. It is her 100 years (perhaps) and she's been advised mindfully.
Teachers of yoga do not sacrifice their truth for the truth of the student.
raquel - 2007-07-16 12:32 AM
I do my best, but there are other students that need help too and she doesnt have the money for private tuition.
In up face dog for instance im sure she must be compressing the lumber but she says it feels fantastic. Rolling is a problem because she bruises her back, I keep suggesting that she brings a thick towel for padding or that she miss it out, but she feels as if she has to do it towel or no towel. She loves to do the plough and this posture must surely be playing into her imbalance, I give her alternatives but shes adamant to do it.
She loves vinyasa classes, I am slowly getting her more into hatha classes as they are more suitable, at least I cover myself by making the suggestions. x |
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| "A good Yoga Teacher must not waste energy on a non good Yoga Student too much."-Neel
"You can advise the student but you are not living their lives and as such should be cautious about being overly attached to the situation."-Purnayoga
These are both really great.
I have a couple who come to three classes per week. He is 75 and she is 77. Their alignment is terrible. I've tried everything I can think of to improve their alignment, but they stubbornly continue. They really love their yoga and are totally enthusiastic about it so I just let them alone to do what makes them happy. They are not hurting themselves and besides their yoga, they spend the winter skiing and the summer sailing (sometimes months at a time). It took me awhile to just let it go, but they are happier and so am I.
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-16 2:54 PM Only good Yoga Student can get a good Yoga Instruction from a good Yoga Teacher. A good Yoga Teacher must not waste energy on a non good Yoga Student too much. Yes, this quote has been rattling about in my head as well, though it's been a theory I've had for quite some time. Is this really true? It's something I've suspected, but then thought myself having too much hubris in having such an attitude. So it's good to hear this thought coming from you, Neel, so that I can continue to trust my own judgment. Thank you. |
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| whew. i finally feel normal again.
this is something that i'd been talking about with one of my local yoga teacher acquaintances, and he insists that we have to give them what they want, which then i argue is 'sacrificing my truth' as a teacher, and then he says something about how "in yoga, it's all one truth from many sides." i felt he was quite patronizing.
so, this brought me to change my method in two ways: 1. be less attached to students "getting it" (still working on this aspect), and 2. be less attached to the postures themselves.
i'll extend on this second one. at this one venue, i've been teaching sun salutations in level 1 and then more than sun salutations in level 2. in variably, my level 1 is packed, my level 2 not so much, but at the beginning of each session, there are a lot of people who do not know sun salutations and "practiced with a book or video" before signing up for level 2.
this would frustrate me, and at first i would reteach sun sals, then move on--but the "real" level 2s were not having their needs met (the whole point of starting a level 1 in the first place). then, i decided to just do it, let people do sun sals however they like.
and now, after 3 years, i have 6 people in level 2, and only one of them does chaturanga properly or in a proper modification as not to injure themselves. so, i asked myself "why is this the case?"
and i realized that it is, in part, because they're not there to learn yoga, they're there to be lead through a sequence of yoga postures so that they can feel good. this means, then, that it is unlikely that they'll ever learn chaturanga or set aside their egos enough to practice a modification for it.
thus, i've decided that i need to be less attached to sun salutations. so, i'll finish off this level 1 with focus on sun salutatoins, but the fall's level 1 will not focus on sun salutations. I have other things in mind that i want to experiment with, so i'm going to do that. And level 2 will also be sun-salutation free. I figure, I can teach them yoga, but they don't have to learn it, and thus in that i'll take out the postures that people get wrong most, cause injury when they do, and then take them through postures that are easier to get (physically) so that they can be happy with a sequence.
but, it's also good to know that i don't have to abandon my truth, which is to teach yoga, not just lead yoga sequences. my other friends told me to "give them waht they want--they want a good time, to feel good." but i don't think that's what yoga is about, and it's not what i want to spend my time doing. i want to teach yoga.
so, i'm gonna, but i'm n ot going to be attached to which postures we do as i was before.
the whole darn thing was obvious, right there all along. i could kick myself for not figuring it out before.
Edited by zoebird 2007-07-17 3:03 PM
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| zoebird - 2007-07-17 3:02 PM the whole darn thing was obvious, right there all along. i could kick myself for not figuring it out before. Dontcha just love that?  Happens to me all the time. and i realized that it is, in part, because they're not there to learn yoga, they're there to be lead through a sequence of yoga postures so that they can feel good. this means, then, that it is unlikely that they'll ever learn chaturanga or set aside their egos enough to practice a modification for it. This is huge, Zoe, really. Thanks so much for putting into words the challenges I've been feeling over the years with my private clients, even moreso than in the few weeks of classes that I've been teaching so far. Being unattached to one's teaching of yoga, such a tough thing. For me, starting out doing this quite a bit later in life than many (in my mid 40s), I feel like I've got an advantage here: the whole aging body as a metaphor for nonattachment looking me back in the mirror every day. Or maybe that's just me... Anyway, glad you got your groove back. |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-16 11:54 AM
... Only good Yoga Student can get a good Yoga Instruction from a good Yoga Teacher. A good Yoga Teacher must not waste energy on a non good Yoga Student too much.
As someone new but somewhat old for a beginner at asana practice, I often worry that I'm missing the mark too much in class. Neel's post reflects what I feel my teacher may think about my practice at times. That's not a complaint though-- I'm grateful to read this insight. |
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| they're not there to learn yoga, they're there to be lead through a sequence of yoga postures so that they can feel good.
I can teach them yoga, but they don't have to learn it
Thank you zoebird
As I mentioned earlier, I have two older students that do everything wrong. I also have two sisters (18 and 19) who do EVERYTHING right. Every pose they do looks like the cover of Yoga Journal and if I mention any improvement, they immediately do it from then on. This is what I really love about teaching Yoga! You are continually challanged to meet the needs of a very diverse group of people and every class has different challanges. |
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| The quote is from Sai Baba - I give them what they want hoping one day they will want what I have to give.
But like all things Yoga it has to be tempered and balanced.
There are overarching principles, like safety for the neck or knee or shoulder that are absolutely not sacrificed (if one ascribes to the Sutras of Patanjali). Students who come only to move their bodies can still move their bodies. Students who come only to perspire can still perspire. Students who come to be led can still be led but they get these things in the context of safety and without me sacrificing my truth.
So to me the gent Zoe mentions has a point though he may be applying it in a "different" fashion than I would. Perhaps an inappropriate fashion, or a confusing fashion or an overly permissive fashion, I do not know.
There are some things to let go of and other things that should absolutely not be let go of.
There was a student in a workshop in Florida and she kept calling out and drawing attention to herself. Weird comments when others were listening made her stand out like a sore thumb and made others uncomfortable. It was only when she used profanity that the teacher went up to her and said "absolutely no profanity in my class please". And that was that. As it turned out the woman had run out of her medication which kept her inner voice inner. But the teacher did not intervene until profanity was used. After all, the teacher is a yogi, no?
Just as students pick teachers so too do teachers pick students. Some students simply need to go and study with someone else. Our mandate with the student who resists, be it alignment, movement, or philosophy, is to educate them as to why this or that is being done. If the student has not been made to understand the concept of prana flow in the physical body how can we expect them to embrace it through their resistence which is years in the weaving?
If I'm teaching Surya Namaskar, for example only, and students are not tipping the pelvis for ashtanga namaskar and it is a pervasive non-action in the group then I stop. Bringing everyone to a student who IS doing it we talk about its effects, its purposes, its integration into the whole, its harmonizing components...then we go back. Are there times when I see a student or two not tip the pelvis in such a pose and let it go? Yes. But only when it is appropriate. A well trained teacher can see the difference between a student working toward a pose and one resisting it.
Yes, some students would be resistent even after all that. And I'd simply walk to them and ask them why they are not tipping the pelvis. If it is a lack of ability or understanding then we can address that and should address that as teachers. But if it is merely a dogma, a resistance without a position, then it is addressed in another way, including but not limited to me letting it go.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-07-17 7:19 PM
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paschimottanasana
