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| How is yoga related to exercising/weightlifting? There seem to be some key similarities and differences, and I am not sure exactly how to reconcile the two.
On the one hand, both yoga and weightlifting require mindfulnuss and awareness of the body in order to truly succeed. For example, you must know how much weight your body can handle, just as you just know exactly how far your body will allow you to stretch or bend in an asana. You must be careful about form in both. Even your breathing patterns should be very precise while lifting, so there is an aspect of breathe control, too. If your mind and body are not coordinating with eachother, there is a good chance you will injure yourself in either activity.
On the other hand, one key difference is the mental and physical quality of the activities. Iyengar explained that an asana should be performed such that the mind and body are relaxed but alert. Ideally, the asana should be "effortless". I am not completely sure what this means (yet), but I do not believe this quality can be applied to weight-lifting. Observe the painful grimace on the face of any person lifting weights, even an expert body builder. "Relaxed" and "effortless" are probably the last words I would use to describe that face.
Another difference is the definition of good pain vs. bad pain in each activity. Iyengar explained that if your practice today hinders your practice tomorrow, then you are doing something wrong. However, this rule is not easily applied to weightlifting, where the goal is often to tear your muscles apart, requiring days, sometimes an entire week or more, to heal. Perhaps I am interpretting Iyengar's message too literally, but it sounds like yoga discourages doing such damage to one's body, even if the damage ultimately leaves your body stronger.
My intuition is that both weight-lifting and yoga ultimately lead to the same end. But there are still some glaring inconsistencies. Thoughts? |
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| In my opinion, Yoga is a method of finding God and weight training strengthens or builds your muscles.
Jonathon
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| Weightsd are similar like you say with discipline, awareness of body and breath but it stops there really, weights will only build muscle often it enlargens the ego , the very thing we are are trying to get away from in yoga. In weights muscles are built, but usually there is an imbalance, (unless under a personal trainer) some body builders cant move and their muscles dont work in a functional way. Joints often tighten with weights, with yoga they are strengthened but also opened.
The concept of balanced yet relaxed is something that you work towards over time, most people believe they are relaxed, but infact are very tense, yoga helps you discover were you are holding unneseccary tension. To use minimal muscular effort, when holding postures as opposed to forcing your body to do another rep of bench press etc
Yoga is different from all other forms of exercise, weights etc require you to make your body do something in yoga it is more of an enquiry - sort of inviting your body to try and then listening and observing.
The end result is definately not the same -
In weights the practice is one of end gaining (want a great body) - in yoga the end result (healthy lean body etc) is only a by- product. it is not the reason for practice, which is getting to know our true Self and ultimately God
Yoga has spirit to it your whole being mind body and spirit is strengthened, weights are mechanical and only work on the body
Weighy training can be beneficial, but it has nothing to do with yoga really its completely different.
Have you just started a practice?
Edited by raquel 2007-07-31 1:31 AM
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| Fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!
jonnie - 2007-07-31 12:45 AM
In my opinion, Yoga is a method of finding God and weight training strengthens or builds your muscles.
Jonathon
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| According to John Friend, there are three main components to Yoga, which, in an open interpretation, I believe do not only apply to the Anusara style of yoga: Attitude, Alignment and Action. He states that of the three, Attitude is the most important. My question to you is, can you have this expression of Attitude while lifting weights or exercising? Many people say they go about all of their daily activities in an expression of opening to Grace (i.e. "finding God" as jonnie put it so beautifully  ), finding Yoga in all that they do, all the time. So in my opinion, yes, you could be practicing Yoga while lifting weights just as well. The physical benefits, again, would only be bonus, and not the primary goal. The intention, ultimately, is yours to choose. Personally, I never knew there was any other way to lift weights or exercise or do any sort of physical movement (and I've been "working out" consistently for the past 25 years). I somehow knew that if you hated what you were doing at any point in time, it would never serve you, plain and simple. "Bad attitude calories don't get burned as well", was my simplistic viewpoint. So conversely, I knew I had to open my entire being to whatever physical task I was doing, and therein my body (and also my mind) would find joy. I didn't know that what I was doing was first opening my heart. I just knew that my attitude (and my intention) mattered the most. And incidentally, I am a personal trainer, and have been trying to teach my clients this concept of proper attitude since first beginning to work with them, over 5 years ago. Since I never called it "yoga" per se, I've been met with much resistance in the fitness world. Occasionally we have a breakthrough and they realize "hey, it's not so awful if I don't keep hating it so much!", but it doesn't seem to keep. They forget as soon as the work gets hard again. But for the few moments that they do "get it", it's fabulous.
Edited by OrangeMat 2007-07-31 7:51 AM
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
I agree-in fact, some of the ancient scriptures talk about just that-so that every task you undertake, you do it yogically. For me, when I was competing in white water canoeing, one of the main reasons I did it was for the beautiful mind-state that came over me whilst competing-most athletes know in advance whether there is any chance of them winning or not-they don't compete to win, but to achieve that state of perfection within themselves-at least, I think they do
Nick
Edited by Nick 2007-07-31 10:49 AM
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| The question itself feels too broad to me. "Yoga"? Which "Yoga". The yoga that is asana but commonly refered to as yoga here in the West? The classical yoga of renouncing the material world? The yoga of relationship outlined in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras?
???
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| Yes purna yoga I know what you mean, I get the feeling he means yogasana - we can of course apply the spirit and philosophy of yoga in all areas of life, but performing postures etc is nothing like lifting weights, (for one we could not be following ahimsa, if we are straining ) the average person lifting weights will be doing it to build muscle and bone not to find themselves, ripping musclen tissue, forcing one more rep etc - the emphasis is on the physical and it is purely an exercise method. ( At least in my experience) I thoroughly used to enjoy weight training but the two do not go hand in hand I tried it - for one the breathing is different Even Pilates which has a certain element of mind / body is very different from yoga. |
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| You can "find yourself" in any activity, as finding yourself is a result of awareness. It is the mindfulness/awareness that leads to finding yourself (self-discovery). That being said, yoga is an activity designed as an aid to finding yourself and weightlifting is an activity designed as an aid to building bigger muscles. I have known people who have done yogasana for years and only recieved the physical benefits because of the lack of awareness that accompanied their practice. I think that intent and awareness are more important than which tools (yogasana or whatever) you choose (although I'm not sure that weightlifting isn't using pliers when you need a crescent wrench.) I try to use everything that I learn in my yoga and apply my yoga insights to everything that I do. I do not feel that yoga stops after corpse pose. I think that that is when it really starts as we practice good posture, awareness, etc in our yoga to apply to our lives. |
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| jonnie - 2007-07-31 12:45 AM
In my opinion, Yoga is a method of finding God and weight training strengthens or builds your muscles.
Jonathon
I prefer to think of yoga as a method of stilling the fluctuations of consciousness. (If you find God aftwerwards, who knows.) Viewed in this way, weight-lifting could very well lead to the same goal. For example, while I am doing sit-ups, it seems as though my attention is rivetted completely on the pain in my abdominal region. Is this not a one-pointed awareness? Or is it different? I have a feeling that somehow I am "cheating" by inducing pain. It's too easy to focus on pain. It seems as though my body naturally focusses on the pain with or without my volition.
Some of you insist that weight-lifting only affects the body. However, this is not true. The mind is very much a factor as well. For example, many professional body builders develop such a heigtened sensitivity to their bodies, that they can simply look at themselves in the mirror and know exactly what their body fat percentage is. Mentally they are so well connected to their bodies, inside and out. One could argue that the heigtened intelligence and awareness of the body is a necessary by-product of the intense weight-training.
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| The fitness industry has put together a weekend seminar, in which weights are included in the practice, (this is then taught in gyms) what do you think about that?
I cant believe people are actually insisting that weight training is yoga, any sport gymnastics, snooker, football, ice skating, dancing takes a certain ammount of focus and concentration and body awareness but it is not yoga they are practicing. Body builders do build up a mind body connection but most of them are obsessed with appearance and end gaining which goes against yogic philosophy, many of them actually harm their body in the long run with sheer ammount of meat they eat, and their joints are hammered. They build strength, but what is the point of being strong if you cant move. Ive got nothing against body building I did it myself for years and understand the difference, with body buiding one is trying to create, with yoga, ones true self is being found, of course some things are similar, but there is different reasons and intentions for practicing each discipline.
Each to their own though ey! |
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| While I do not disagree with you Raquel I think caution might be the order of the day as the descriptions you offer do fit some yoga practices. I'll not mention any specific "traditions" because it's not relevant and not my place. But it is very clear some yoga practitioners are also "obsessed with their appearance".
Oddly, in Strazin's last comment the reference is to the basic concept of the Sutras (Patanjali) where he mentions stilling the fluctuations. It is noteworthy that the sutras (sthirasukhamàsanam) mention steady comfortable seat but do not mention motion (though some translations do take liberties). Keep in mind also that classically Asana was renounced as being something that stoked Ego (as we in the west have clearly proven). None of the great Rishis did asana.
It seems rather obvious that movement does not, in and of itself, lead to stilling the mind. Otherwise everyone in New York would have very still minds as they move constantly: just as they do in Las Vegas or Los Angeles. It is only in the stillness, the stopping of the running around (societally and logistically speaking) that we can even begin to explore the Self. Are there moving meditations? Certainly. Is it possible to me moving and do this work? Of course. However it is less likely. It might feel good. But clearly (again based on the society we have and what has come of it) it is stillness and quiet that is the prescription needed. Convincing ourselves that more movement is a righteous path seems to qualify as Avidya. Again it may feel good (and may be the perfect path for some). It may produce endorphins. It may stave off depression. It may bring health to the body. But it is not of itself an answer.
As asana is not Yoga, a question of "is yoga the same as weight training" warrants a "no" answer.
Yoga, to me, is not an "activity" but a system. What sort of system? It is a system of mindful evolution with a requsite of involution. The rest is just details.
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| Exactly Gordon.
I completely agree.
Incidently, while no asanas are mentioned by name in the sutras, there are also no standing poses mentioned in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. This should tell us something!!!
Asana is primarily a vehicle to prepare the body for sitting in lotus or another appropriate asana for meditation.
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| I agree to a certain extent there are many people practicing yoga and not really understanding what it is all about, teachers too, personally I dont practice yoga to get a beautiful body, for me I enjoy the well being, joy and contentment I gain from it, I do it because it makes me feel centred balanced it frees my spirit. There is no other form of "exercise" that offers this (not for me) Ive tried most things.
About standing postures what about Krishnamarchya who claimed to have found on palm leaves evidence of ashtanga yoga dating back 1500years - all the standing postures are there. Do you think he was lying?
Patanjali only mentions seated postures, for most individuals to sit with comfort is impossible - so that is another reason for making the body strong and supple, to be able to sit for long periods of time. I think Patanjali makes it quite clear that meditation is dependant on the other limbs, so if you cant sit with comfort and ease - then the body needs to be exercised in such a way that it can. And asana is perfect - it all ties in. To write an exhaustive compilation on numerous asana, pranayama and other techniques, and how they can be adapted and applied
by individuals would be totaly impractical.
regarding movement I believe stillness means still mind not neccessarily still body (the body is never still)_
Dynamic vinyasa yoga allows me to harness the speed and flow of my mind, When I practice it my mind cannot wander anywere else.
Rather than trying to will my mind to be still, I use consistancy to stabilize and harmonize it, so that at the end of my practice my mind is ready to meditate. I know others that can just meditate, good for them, but in the beginning I wouldnt have had the patience and would have become frustated so would have got bored and given up, this is why yogasana (performed with right attitude) is so good because it lights the way for individuals that have minds which are too busy - it fits in with the pace of today - and eventually the mind does become more calm, to just be able to sit and meditate without having done asana previously.
For me hatha yoga is different in that it is a tool for transformation, it is soul food -people can find God in many different ways, im sure their are lots of spiritual people (non yogis)looking after their health by incorporating weights, but it is not the same as practicing hatha yoga which penetrates the core of our being. |
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| raquel - 2007-08-02 4:20 PM
About standing postures what about Krishnamarchya who claimed to have found on palm leaves evidence of ashtanga yoga dating back 1500years - all the standing postures are there. Do you think he was lying?
I don't think that writing on palm leaves would necessarily last for 1,500 years and find it odd that this evidence suddenly disappeared (reminds me of the 10 Comandments in the Old Testament where stone tablets disappeared and The Book of Morman where golden tablets also disappeared). Even if these leaves were not all that old, Krishnamacharya may have been told that they were and have believed it. Also, Patanjali was almost 2,200 years ago so the palm leaves (if they existed and were that old) would have been almost 700 years later. The question as to whether Krishnamacharya may have lied is simple; he was a human just like the rest of us and of course may have lied or made a mistake. This does not diminish his geatness, as whether he lied or was mistaken on this particular matter does not change his great service to yoga. |
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Location: London, England | Hi there,
Just to add, if the yoga korunta did have pictures of asana, then it apparently completely unique-no other text in the world has this-so logic tells me that Krichnamacharya and Jois both lied. And I think this demeans them both.
Nick |
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| Krisnamacharya found the manuscript himself whilst on his travels in Calcutta at the National library, according to him the manuscript was 1500 years old but the syntax suggested that its oral tradition went back 5000 years. He was convinced that this was the yoga Patanjali himself would have practiced.
Its also debatable when the yoga sutras were written ranging from the 4th century BC to the 4th century AD and also whether he was actually two people.
I cant see why he would make it up why couldnt it survive under the right conditions, egyption papyrus survived many years. It does seem a bit dodgy that it disappeared, but if it had been untouched for many years, then was handled it probably just disintegrated, that didnt matter because the system had been taught to Patabi Jois who passed it on.
What a guy!!!
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| Nick, absolutely nothing else was found, who knows if it was recorded or not a lot of yogis were not educated and couldnt write, statues of asanas have been found dating back 2 - 3 thousand years ago, how do you explain that? |
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| raquel - 2007-08-03 12:20 AM
About standing postures what about Krishnamarchya who claimed to have found on palm leaves evidence of ashtanga yoga dating back 1500years - all the standing postures are there. Do you think he was lying?
Yes I do.
Maybe lying is a strong word, but I don't believe in the validity of the document that he is supposed to have found (incidently neither do B.K.S Iyengar or his son Desikachar if you read between the lines in interview questions that they answer and view their own personal practise and teachings).
I believe that Sri Krishnamacharya created Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga as a way to teach children the techniques and asanas of physical Yoga.
Jonathon
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Location: London, England | Hi there,
First of all, let me say, that I obviously don't know what has happened-but then again, only Jois and Krichnamacharya can tell us that-and they have already told us their version of events-it's just I don't believe them-yet. But I'm willing to have my mind changed. I remember reading somewhere about the Mysore palace, the author described seeing a book there of gymnastics, from Britain-many of the moves have been used in the astanga sequences. It seems likely that Krichnamacharya merely linked them all together, with some classical yoga postures. I don't think there is anything wrong in this, but I do think it's wrong to try to validate the method falsely.
I don't know many experts on the ancient scripts, but I do know one of the best-Matthew Clark-if you ever get to hear him lecture, make sure you go:-). He's also an Astangi. He's never in all his life seen a text which describes sequences of asana in the way that was presented in the yoga korunta-it just wasn't done. So it's a crying shame that the text is no longer with us for experts who have no advantage in proving its authenticity to examine it.
Nick |
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| Sorry jonnie for being so blunt, but I say it like it is, he was either lying or he wasnt.
nick
I suppose like you say we may never really know the truth, Krishnamarchyia took the secret to his grave Jois is sticking with the original story. Everything else is hear say!
All I can say is the system is amazing and I love it no matter were it came from its genius |
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Location: London, England | me too!
Nick |
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| Hi Rachel,
If you PM me your email, I'll send you a very interesting interview with Iyengar, Desikachar and Pattabhi Jois all discussing their relationship with their Guru Sri Krishnamacharya.
Jonathon
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| Jonnie,
I think we'd all like to see a copy of that interview. Can you post a link on the forum?
Personally I don't see why it matters who dreamed up ashtanga and whether it's 3000 years or 5 mins old. It works and that's more than enough for me!
Ian |
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| Hi Ian,
I only have it as a PDF file, though I have just emailed you a copy....
I also think Ashtanga Vinyasa is an excellent system (as evidenced in my posts over the last year or so), though I don't think it's suitable for everyone though.
Jonathon
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Yoga and exercising/lifting
