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 The Yogic DietModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> General Yoga | Message format |
Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098   Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2007-09-06 5:48 PM when neel said 'how tibetan monks eat meat is different than an american going to the steak house' i saw this very truth in it. it IS different. and, my husband, while no tibetan monk in regards to his food (nor is he under any such specific requirements), even the way he eats meat is different than the typical person going to a steak house. he is very particular about sourcing his meat and meat-related products. Actually, there is no difference. Even Americans bless their food, just like the Tibetan monks do. The only difference is that the meat here in most American restaurants, the beef is not organic and comes from cows that have been blasted with hormones and chemicals. Trust me, the monks over here in the USA go to steak houses too. They just aren't obsessed with their food, they bless it with prayers and pooja and are done with it. Like I said, it's how you cultivate your mind, thoughts and simplicity. When you're poor, you eat what you need to, to keep your body alive and healthy. That it is how the Tibetans have survived all these years. Their culture has been ripped and shredded apart. This is how they keep the Tibetian Spirit alive, no matter where they are. It's a beautiful thing. | ||
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| cyndi, i see what you're saying about the blessings and poojas/pujas--this makes sense to me, and i agree with it. i also agree with you in regards to doing what you can with what you have. this is something that i have always advocated in vegetarian circles--a common refrain is "the best you can do" and that "every little bit counts." to me, what counts most is the thinking about it--as you said. as i said before, the thinking about it is the real key. that's where the yoga is. and it's a funny thing. when people ask me why i'm vegetarian, i always say "simplicity!" LOL ;) | |||
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| SCThornley |
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| Well, it's pretty obvious that everyone on this forum is not poor, for goodness sake you have access to the internet, and a computer, so none of us are subsisting, so since needs are met why would a serious student of Yoga want to choose to eat meat? How does a serious student of Yoga consider it good and fine to eat meat? I'm not intending to say that meat eaters cannot be serious Yoga students. I just don't know how I could be a serious Yoga student and continue to eat meat, or eggs, I still eat cheese, I don't recollect what Swami Vishnudevananda said about cheese. I know, that for me, food choice is a big deal, regardless of the extremely advanced Tibetans and Indians and Southerners that eat meat and deep fried soul food and don't touch fish but will take one life to feed one hundred, for me these points are missing the mark. I'm not sure that I can fully grasp your point of view, Cyndi, however I'm fully willing to read it, and I hope that I'm expressing myself in a way that is not overly superior than thou or whatever, because I don't really want to have any effect on other people's eating habits. I just don't see how a serious student of Yoga can eat meat and continue to be a serious student of Yoga, maybe a Yoga practitioner, but not a SERIOUS student of Yoga. In my mind there is a difference. | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442    | I am with zb and those who feel that simply beginning to ask the questions and think about these things is so important. What you choose to eat in the next half hour is not the key question - how you feel about the food you eat and beginning to delve into the ideas around it is. As for statistics, I am with Mark Twain. There are three kinds of lies - Lies, ****ed lies and statistics!  | ||
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| Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | SCThornley - 2007-09-06 7:14 PM Well, it's pretty obvious that everyone on this forum is not poor, for goodness sake you have access to the internet, and a computer, so none of us are subsisting, so since needs are met why would a serious student of Yoga want to choose to eat meat? How does a serious student of Yoga consider it good and fine to eat meat? I'm not intending to say that meat eaters cannot be serious Yoga students. Look at your words here....you contradict yourself, then you impose your belief's onto others with judgemental overtones. This is ridiculous. FYI....the original poster is from MONGOLIA, they don't grow vegetables there!!!!!! How do you know my financial situation??? You don't know what your're talking about. Don't even try. I just don't know how I could be a serious Yoga student and continue to eat meat, or eggs, I still eat cheese, I don't recollect what Swami Vishnudevananda said about cheese. It's these sorts of comments that make me want to throw up. I know, that for me, food choice is a big deal, regardless of the extremely advanced Tibetans and Indians and Southerners that eat meat and deep fried soul food and don't touch fish but will take one life to feed one hundred, for me these points are missing the mark. Let me see if I can simplify this for you. 1 fish maybe will feed 1 person, depending on size of fish. Average fish size will feed maybe 2. Therefore, to feed a couple of hundred people you would need a couple of hundred fish...couple of hundred lives. 1 Yak = one life will feed a couple of hundred people at least twice. I just don't see how a serious student of Yoga can eat meat and continue to be a serious student of Yoga, maybe a Yoga practitioner, but not a SERIOUS student of Yoga. Again, this is just BS. Tell that to HH Dalai Lama. I consider him to be one very great Yogi. For the record, I know an Indian Guru, he's very popular and mostly everyone knows of him, who tells his devotees that if they want to eat fish that it's fine and dandy. They take their practice very seriously too. He has lots of devotees. Edited by Cyndi 2007-09-06 8:27 PM | ||
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| i think the egg issue is interesting. i think that part of the original question (from the traditional vedic perspective) is the understanding or idea that eggs are/were typically fertilized. but today, non-fertilized eggs are available. Gandhi wrote about it in his work--that unfertilized eggs would be ok, but that fertilized ones are the same as eating a chicken. i think that the issue with eggs second to the fertilization issue is the way that they are raised, and then from there, the way that they are bred, sold, etc. it's pretty extreme. i believe i was watching Baraka in which baby chickens were being de-beaked and sorted between 'keepers' and those to be incinerated alive. and it was intense to watch. whew! i'm so very farm focused. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| I was about to give up. But, when I see the last few posts here, I am Wild Vegetarian! 1. I am completely open to talk with the HH Dalai Lama and I am completely open to take the challenge with the statement with assurance that He will Accept my statement (and the following all statements) that Vegetarian Food is Superior to Non Vegetarian Food for any human being, especially for a Yoga Student, including Tibetan Buddhist. Anybody here who wants to make this dialog happen, I am now ready. Tell me what I need to do. 2. If one monk says that meat is ok, another says fish is ok, etc. does not mean that it is good in general. It can only mean that in a particular situation, that is acceptable. That is not a recommendation. And, the recommendation out of Vegetarian and NonVEg is ONLY one, that is Vegetarian. There is NO recommendation of becoming Non Vegetarian. 3. If someone is eating meat and getting enlightened, there is no problem. But, that is NOT due to eating meat. But, if one is eating meat, and then gives it up, and becomes Vegetarian, and gets enlightened, then the Vegetarianism has a part to play in that enlightenment. In other words, a non vegetarian going to vegetarianism is a Positive Step. And, a Vegetarian becoming Non Vegetarian is a Negative Step. 4. If someone is eating meat due to geography, unavailability, background, etc. there is NO problem. In fact, there is no problem because there is NO choice. And, for a spiritual practitioner they can not wait until Vegetarian situation opens up. However, when it opens up, they might (with benefit) move to vegetarianism. In case of Vegetarian however, there is no or little need to do otherwise. 5. You shall find that MOST saints in their intense Yogic Practice did not and could not eat meat, even those who were previous meat/fish eaters. And, the enlightened ones when they eat meat amongst common people, that is not to recommend meat, but to accept what is offered and to not differ from the ONLY available sources, and not to differ from the common people. 6. I re-read the original post. Since my knowledge of Mongolia is limited (and, NOT so with Tibet), I do not know the availability verses unavailability. But, if the OP is reaching his enlightenment while eating meat, he should not worry or have any questions. His question is: Whether there are others who are having similar enlightenment, (and he specifically mentions as given in the Indian Counterpart, ) while eating meat. Those who have such enlightenment while eating meat should come forward and state so. 7. And, simplicity has nothing to do with eating meat or not eating meat. In fact, in Indian circles, eating meat will not be simple. Meat costs more than Veges. And, mostly rich people eat it as compared to the poors. And, it has nothing to do with Hinduism. Indian people do not like the ones from Vedic times who ate meat. Even meat eaters in India respect Vegetarians. And, this includes those who are Realized and Meat Eaters. They respect Vegetarians. 8. All food refered in the above statements is assumed good fresh food. NO junk food is inlcuded, whether vegetarian or non vegetarian. 9. And, Tibetans eating meat is not same as Americans eating it, and it is not same as Tibetan Monk eating it in the American Stake House. Just watch how Tibetans (not the modern ones, but the simple ones!) eat meat in terms of raising, cooking, cutting, etc. And, then watch all that how it is done in America. And, you shall find it is not the same. It has not do with prayers, but actually architecture of it. 10. As for Health, number of studies have been conducted in a very statistical way, or medical way, or chemical way, etc. And, they have proven amply that vegetarian diet is more healthy. And, American Persons in general have recognized this fact. Those who continue to eat meat are doing that due to habit, choice, taste, etc. And, they do acknowledge the benefit of Vegetarianism. This is in general. We have to exclude the Industry from this. ETC. | |||
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| SCThornley |
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Cyndi - 2007-09-06 8:26 PM SCThornley - 2007-09-06 7:14 PM Well, it's pretty obvious that everyone on this forum is not poor, for goodness sake you have access to the internet, and a computer, so none of us are subsisting, so since needs are met why would a serious student of Yoga want to choose to eat meat? How does a serious student of Yoga consider it good and fine to eat meat? I'm not intending to say that meat eaters cannot be serious Yoga students. Look at your words here....you contradict yourself, then you impose your belief's onto others with judgemental overtones. This is ridiculous. FYI....the original poster is from MONGOLIA, they don't grow vegetables there!!!!!! How do you know my financial situation??? You don't know what your're talking about. Don't even try. I just don't know how I could be a serious Yoga student and continue to eat meat, or eggs, I still eat cheese, I don't recollect what Swami Vishnudevananda said about cheese. It's these sorts of comments that make me want to throw up. I know, that for me, food choice is a big deal, regardless of the extremely advanced Tibetans and Indians and Southerners that eat meat and deep fried soul food and don't touch fish but will take one life to feed one hundred, for me these points are missing the mark. Let me see if I can simplify this for you. 1 fish maybe will feed 1 person, depending on size of fish. Average fish size will feed maybe 2. Therefore, to feed a couple of hundred people you would need a couple of hundred fish...couple of hundred lives. 1 Yak = one life will feed a couple of hundred people at least twice. I just don't see how a serious student of Yoga can eat meat and continue to be a serious student of Yoga, maybe a Yoga practitioner, but not a SERIOUS student of Yoga. Again, this is just BS. Tell that to HH Dalai Lama. I consider him to be one very great Yogi. For the record, I know an Indian Guru, he's very popular and mostly everyone knows of him, who tells his devotees that if they want to eat fish that it's fine and dandy. They take their practice very seriously too. He has lots of devotees. Cyndi, you haven't changed one bit. You have a Harley Davidson Motorcycle (or is it some other brand?) as well, don't you, and a computer with internet connection, Bee Hives, animals, children, husbands, and you live in the mountains of North Carolina. Yep, I'd say that you're wealthy. I only know what you've stated. I know what I'm talking about. I don't know why I'm making you want to throw up, but maybe it's the amount of meat you've been consuming that makes it difficult for you to consider my point of view, however you perceive it? Really, I don't know for sure why you want to throw up, maybe you need to clean your gut? Mongolia is quite capable of growing grains on the plains, but even if they choose not to, I'm not concerned what they choose to do there, although I'm surprised to imagine that an entire country is incapable of growing vegetation, I mean what does the livestock eat? I've never been to Mongolia, but apparently they do grow magic mushrooms there and I guess between bite sized pieces of Kebab and other meat on a stick concoctions those Mongolians like Planthelper take the time to eat them. Please, tell me I'm wrong (I'm sure you will anyway) but you really appear to be projecting, Cyndi. | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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| Hi All, You are not the body. To suggest that enlightenment is dependent on diet is so limiting. What else is it dependent on then? You are already free. You are spirit, you are not the body. Your Self is always present no matter what you eat. A vegetarian diet was suggested by yogis, as was asana, pranayam and all the cleansing techniques to assist your energy level, so that you have enough energy to practice letting go of thoughts. All the techniques mentioned are intended to raise your energy so that it's easier to let go of negative thoughts and states until you are well established in this, until it's as easy as breathing. We all know how we can get caught or have gotten caught in negative states when we are/were tired, or premenstrual ,or sick, as examples. Correct diet, asana, pranayam.meditation etc doesn't lead to freedom. They are only tools. At some point you realize you are and were already free, eternal, spirit and have just been playing games for something to do. You are already Free. Eat what you will. You are not the body. You are not the mind. Be in peace, Soul Edited by souljourney108 2007-09-06 11:31 PM | |||
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| jonnie |
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| There is also the issue of Karma though. | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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jonnie - 2007-09-08 1:35 PM There is also the issue of Karma though. What does word Karma mean to you? (Definitions are important to establish, as it's difficult to discuss a topic when we have a different meaning. I suspect the meaning of the word "karma" in sanskrit to it's english translation may be off the mark) Edited by souljourney108 2007-09-06 11:50 PM | |||
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| jonnie |
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| Hi Soul, To me, karma means action. Specifically, how my past actions have shaped my present and how my present actions will shape my future. Jonathon | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Hey Soul. How R U? Please see below. ===> souljourney108 - 2007-09-06 11:30 PM Hi All, You are not the body. To suggest that enlightenment is dependent on diet is so limiting. What else is it dependent on then? You are already free. You are spirit, you are not the body. Your Self is always present no matter what you eat. ===> Yes, you are the spirit and not the body. But, to realize this in the totality, NOT In theory, is the Enlightenment. Until one actually realizes this, one is NOT Enlightened and one is a Yoga Student. And, what the Yoga Student does for being Enlightened is called Yoga Practice. And, Yoga Practice depends NOT ON What you are, but it depends on the Body and Mind. And, Body and Mind Depend on Diet. And, therefore, the Enlightenment depends on the Diet. A vegetarian diet was suggested by yogis, as was asana, pranayam and all the cleansing techniques to assist your energy level, so that you have enough energy to practice letting go of thoughts. All the techniques mentioned are intended to raise your energy so that it's easier to let go of negative thoughts and states until you are well established in this, until it's as easy as breathing. We all know how we can get caught or have gotten caught in negative states when we are/were tired, or premenstrual ,or sick, as examples. ===> Raising energy level is one way to look at it or one usage of terminology. The Yogic Terminology is Chitta Shuddhi or cleansing of body and mind. kaayendriyashuddhirashuddhikshayaattapasH.... Patanjali. Correct diet, asana, pranayam.meditation etc doesn't lead to freedom. They are only tools. ===> Wrong. They are the tools and they are the tools to lead to freedom. For examples: tataH kshiiyate prakaashaavaranam.... Patanjali. At some point you realize you are and were already free, eternal, spirit and have just been playing games for something to do. ===> Not playing games. But, that you were ignorant of the true nature. avidyaa kshetramuttareshaam... Patanjali You are already Free. Eat what you will. You are not the body. You are not the mind. ===> You are free to eat what you will. But, you are not free yet. And, you are the Body and Mind until you are truely free, that is enlightened. When an Enlightened eats meat, that is different from UnEnlightened eating meat. Be in peace, Soul | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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| Hi Jonathon, You wrote.. "To me, karma means action. Specifically, how my past actions have shaped my present and how my present actions will shape my future" Yes, in this context eating meat has an effect (the cause being eating meat...the effect being different depending on digestion strength or the persons dosha) Hi Neel, You wrote... "but it depends on the Body and Mind. And, Body and Mind Depend on Diet. And, therefore, the Enlightenment depends on the Diet" If we are dependent on the body and mind for enlightenment, then when the body goes, we are no longer enlightened? You also wrote... "===> Not playing games. But, that you were ignorant of the true nature. avidyaa kshetramuttareshaam... Patanjali" That is what I mean also. and you wrote... "===> You are free to eat what you will. But, you are not free yet. And, you are the Body and Mind until you are truely free, that is enlightened. When an Enlightened eats meat, that is different from UnEnlightened eating meat." How about , you THINK you are the body and mind (not you Are) until you REALIZE you are not. Realizing you are not, in every moment, is called enlightenment. Self Realization. You may need to lay of the rump steaks to assist you in this realization, or you may not. Some may practice eating human bits of flesh at cremation grounds as their practice of losing ego (ie thinking we are separate) as the Aghori yogis. Be in Peace, Soul | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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souljourney108 - 2007-09-08 2:37 PM Hi Neel, You wrote... "but it depends on the Body and Mind. And, Body and Mind Depend on Diet. And, therefore, the Enlightenment depends on the Diet" ...abit more (ran out of edit time) Of course we need a body and mind to reach realization, and food is needed for continuity of the body/mind. But this discussion is on which kind of food. The desire to be free brings realization. Sattvic food may help to make it easier to let go of identification with the body/mind until one is established ie samadhi (continuous). Be in peace, Soul Edited by souljourney108 2007-09-07 2:33 AM | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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Edited by souljourney108 2007-09-07 3:09 AM | |||
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| for what it's worth, right now, i am as much body as i am spirit. i see them as integrated. and yes, spirit is what moves in and out of form--and is eternal--but it is impacted by body, and body by spirit. i can say this because i saw and felt my bunny die on wednesday. it was powerful for me in every way, and confirmed what i little i know of living and dying. i feel that it is true, what rumi says: Each form you see has its unseen twin image. If the form is transient, its essence is eternal. If you have known beauty in a face Or wisdom in a word, Let this nourish your heart: What passes is not real. — Rumi so i feel that right now, i am wholly and holy body--but that it is an instrument of the now and not of forever. just like ego can be an instrument of the now, and one can be both these things and transcendent of them. one can transcend and include. and i feel very inclusive right now, while october j has decided not to be inclusive any longer. | |||
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| souljourney108 |
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| Each form you see has its unseen twin image. If the form is transient, its essence is eternal. If you have known beauty in a face Or wisdom in a word, Let this nourish your heart: What passes is not real. — Rumi This is a beautiful poem by Rumi...Thanks Zoe. Like he wrote..."What passes is not real".The body is not real. The mind is not real . These things pass. Bunny is eternal. Love to you sister. Soul | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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souljourney108 - 2007-09-07 12:37 AM Hi Jonathon, You wrote.. "To me, karma means action. Specifically, how my past actions have shaped my present and how my present actions will shape my future" Yes, in this context eating meat has an effect (the cause being eating meat...the effect being different depending on digestion strength or the persons dosha) ===> NO. The cause being 'killing an animal to eat meat' and 'causing a suffering to that animal' which later I have reap. Hi Neel, You wrote... "but it depends on the Body and Mind. And, Body and Mind Depend on Diet. And, therefore, the Enlightenment depends on the Diet" If we are dependent on the body and mind for enlightenment, then when the body goes, we are no longer enlightened? ===> NO. When the body goes, we are born again into another body unless we are liberated. When we are in the other body, we start all over again. punarapi jananaM purnarapi maranaM punarapi janani jathare shayanam.... Shree Adi Shankaracharya ===> It is the Yoga Practice that depends on Body and Mind, which makes the Englightenment depend on them too. ...abit more (ran out of edit time) Of course we need a body and mind to reach realization, and food is needed for continuity of the body/mind. But this discussion is on which kind of food. ===> Yes. But more than that, What is the process that food is obtained. The desire to be free brings realization. Sattvic food may help to make it easier to let go of identification with the body/mind until one is established ie samadhi (continuous). ===> NO. Sattiv food makes the body cleaner and mind more serene, which helps in Meditation. You also wrote... "===> Not playing games. But, that you were ignorant of the true nature. avidyaa kshetramuttareshaam... Patanjali" That is what I mean also. ===> I see. and you wrote... "===> You are free to eat what you will. But, you are not free yet. And, you are the Body and Mind until you are truely free, that is enlightened. When an Enlightened eats meat, that is different from UnEnlightened eating meat." How about , you THINK you are the body and mind (not you Are) until you REALIZE you are not. Realizing you are not, in every moment, is called enlightenment. Self Realization. You may need to lay of the rump steaks to assist you in this realization, or you may not. Some may practice eating human bits of flesh at cremation grounds as their practice of losing ego (ie thinking we are separate) as the Aghori yogis. ===> THINKING is different from REALIZATION. One may think they are spirit, but then if one slaps them in public, they might forget their true nature! Jesus Christ never fought wars. But, his proponents burnt people at stake. That means they think they are Christian, but actually they are NON-Christian. Christian is that who can be crucified while remembering that he is son of God. ===> Yes, I bow down to Aghori Yogis. Aghori Yogis do not eat meat from Steak House. And, they also do not live in homes. And, Aghori Path is ONLY for those who can handle it. It is not an average path, like Yoga is. That is why it is called A-Ghor! | |||
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| Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey ZB, Thanks for bringing Rumi into this discussion. In fact, doing so reminded me of my favorite quote which came just in time for this stupid vegetarian discussion. The quote I'm talking about goes like this............ "Out beyond ideas of wrong-doing & right-doing, there is a field - I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about". ~~Rumi~~ So, as far as I am concerned...this discussion falls into the category of "right-doing" and "wrong-doing" ....another words..... This conversation is a waste of my time. ZB, I know exactly how you feel about October J and your experience. I've had to deal with human death too much in this lifetime. I had my share of it this summer. Death seems to be drawned to me in the way that I've assisted so many friends, family members and animals at their time of death. It's quite an experience that you can't really describe to others. Soul Journey, thanks for your input...it was very "refreshing". Edited by Cyndi 2007-09-07 8:45 AM | ||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Cyndiben is creative a group of wise persons, to later participate in the discussions with stupids!!!! But, I am always there for her. Or, I welcome her (to our group)!!! | |||
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| SCThornley |
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Cyndi - 2007-09-07 8:25 AM So, as far as I am concerned...this discussion falls into the category of "right-doing" and "wrong-doing" ....another words..... This conversation is a waste of my time. It's when you write things like this that makes it very difficult for me to take anything you say seriously, or to think you're doing anything other than being condescending. | |||
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| SCThornley |
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| Like I said before, Eat what you want, I then went on to say why "FOR ME" diet is such an important decision. Many factors go into why I choose to not eat meat, one of them is the toxins that bio-accumulate in living animals. If you only bio-accumulate from vegetation you will end up with less chemicals in your system at the end of the day, and there is nowhere on earth, not even organic certified that can escape the blanket of chemicals that have been sprayed all over the earth and spilled on the ground and leaked into the water system. So, I want to limit my exposure to hormone mimicking endocrine disruption induced by all the chemicals present in the environment. These chemicals are at a lower concentration in the primary foods that vegetarians, like the animals folks eat, consume as the staples of their diet. Other than that, it's very much a karma decision for me. Edited by SCThornley 2007-09-07 10:17 AM | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Brother SCT. Wait for a while. Let the wise ones scratch their heads. I am sure you are a very good stupid on the Wise Path. Later all wise ones shall join your path. Rest assured. | |||
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| SCThornley |
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kulkarnn - 2007-09-07 11:31 AM Brother SCT. Wait for a while. Let the wise ones scratch their heads. I am sure you are a very good stupid on the Wise Path. Later all wise ones shall join your path. Rest assured. thanks, at least I've got that going for me  | |||
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