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| i just finished a month long intensive ashtanga retreat with alex medin. towards the end i noticed that my body was stiffer in certain areas than before, particulary the tendons and ligaments behind the knees. i was told this is because of the intensity we were working with, and it will heal after a while and then i will be able to notice the difference in terms of flexibility.
anyway it's been about a week since the course ended, and i'm still feeling very stiff and some pain behind the knees. i used to be able to come into a half lotus with no warm up right after waking up, now my knee is something like 6 inches off the other knee when i try it.
how long does it take for the body to finally heal? i still practice 6 days/week, but i've turned the intensity down a bit. |
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| You should probably email or call that teacher.
Something doesn't sound right.. You say that the tendons behind the knee are causing you problems in half lotus?
Usually the problem with lotus is hip opening. How does Baddha Konasana feel?
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Location: London, England | Hi Mo,
Unfortunately, that kind of instruction is prevalent in astanga circles-you have probably been doing postures with hyper-extended knees (how many times have I said that on this web site?  ), and now the hamstrings are buggered. There's only one muscle behind the knee, popliteus, and the pain you feel is probably from the tendons of the two tendons of the hamstring muscles-possibly also ligaments, but from the way you describe it, I would say the hamstrings are the likely culprits.
Muscles trained in this way do not improve your flexibility-they only improve your ability to screw your body up by practicing yoga-after a while, your hamstrings may adapt to the demands you make, then you will start to lengthen your ligaments-then the knee joints start to degenerate-then you realize too late that you have been doing things which are bad for your joints.
Nick |
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| is this true even if the stiffness/pain is only present before warming up? if i sit in siddhasana for 1-2 minutes, everything feels fine. the pain isn't intense, just a stiff kind of pain, like an over-used muscle.
baddha konasana feels fine, no strain at all. when i get to my first repition of ardha baddha padmottanasana (i do two), my knees are stiff, and there's slight pain. my second rep is pain-free, and by the time i get to the marichyasana series, i'm totally comfortable and can easily come into the half-lotus needed for marich B and D.
so are these the symptoms of incorrect posture or just over-stressed joints? as far as i know, i can't hyperextend my knees. |
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Location: London, England | agajanana - 2007-10-14 11:19 AM
is this true even if the stiffness/pain is only present before warming up? if i sit in siddhasana for 1-2 minutes, everything feels fine. the pain isn't intense, just a stiff kind of pain, like an over-used muscle.
baddha konasana feels fine, no strain at all. when i get to my first repition of ardha baddha padmottanasana (i do two), my knees are stiff, and there's slight pain. my second rep is pain-free, and by the time i get to the marichyasana series, i'm totally comfortable and can easily come into the half-lotus needed for marich B and D.
so are these the symptoms of incorrect posture or just over-stressed joints? as far as i know, i can't hyperextend my knees. .
Hi Mo,
What might be happening-and I stress 'might'- is that by going through the preparatory postures to warm up, you are taking advantage of what is called the pain-gate theory-this is where you stimulate different nerve receptors other than the ones which register painful stimuli-this is why rubbing a bruise, or your mum blowing on a cut or 'kissing it better' helps. So all the non-painful movement is blocking the message from the pain fibres from reaching the spinal cord. This is a theory of mine, and like I said, comes with a big 'might.' In yoga, this can lead to students thinking that their yoga practice is going well, when in fact, they are damaging themselves.
There is an argument for ardha baddha padmottanasana being in the wrong place-it's often more difficult than the forward bends which come after it-I often switch it for janu sirsasana-the actions in both should be almost exactly the same-then you are using a less advanced posture to warm up for a more advanced posture-this is the rule for rehabilitation and improving performance. In all the studies that I've looked at, therefore, half lotus would never come before janu sirsasana. Considering the first series is called yoga chikitsa-yoga therapy-I don't see why it shouldn't follow the same rules. There are exceptions-for instance, if you are able to do half lotus easily, without a warm up-but as you cannot do that, it would point to you not being ready, or that your techniques is incorrect-the forces that you are creating cannot be withstood by the knee and its muscles (in which case you are not ready, but your technique may be good), or, that you are putting stresses on the knee which it simply wasn't designed to cope with (in which case your technique needs brushing up).
In the case of knee hyper-extension, you don't have to look as though you are 'double-jointed' to suffer from the dangers of extending your knee incorrectly-all you have to do is use the muscles around the knee incorrectly, and put the knee in a position which means that the forces that are created either stress the hamstrings 'too much', or pinch the joint surfaces, or stretch the ligaments. So even students who cannot straighten their legs in a forward bend could still damge their knees through incorrect leg action, although it is more unlikely than someone who had greater ability to extend the leg fully.
The pain-gate theory mentioned above isn't the only mechanism that might be leading to knee pain-we are incredibly complex, and the issues that injure us can be mental or physical-that's where the fun starts .
Nick |
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| Mo,
Ouch! It's not nice I know. I overstretched my right knee a couple of years ago and couldn't do any yoga for a week or two. I couldn't get that leg into half lotus for about 6 weeks and could still feel tenderness in the knee for some months.
I used it as a learning experience. I now know how far I can push my knees before they say no more!
Ian |
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| Sounds like there could be inflamation there.
Have you tired taking ibuprofen or aspirin?
I'm glad baddha konasana doesn't hurt. I think that is a good sign that there isn't serious damage. Knees are cranky and you have to listen to them.
I find that with knee issues. (my wife and friend have them) yoga and walking or swimming a few days a week help instead of hurt.
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| that's what i actually think it is, inflammation from the stress of the intensive. i'm going to start rubbing some ointment and see what that does, but i just wanted to get other people's opinions just to see if i might be missing something here.
i practice 6 days/week, and aside from the sore knees, everything else feels great. |
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| I feel off the wagon last week. I'm going to shoot for 6 this week.
The weather in Florida is finally starting to cool down, so we've been taking my son for walks outside. Plus, I'm also enjoying swimming, so we'll see.
See look, I'm already talking myself out of it.
Eric
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| Since Astanga yoga is often hard on the knees, it seems natural to me that you could have some knee problems after a month long intensive. Either you actually injured yourself or your knees are just stressed from over-use. Either way I'm sure that you don't want a permanent injury. I don't think that anyone can diagnose the problem through a website so you should seek expert advice in person. Knees are too important to mess with! |
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body recovery time
