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To Bandha or not to Bandha Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga	Message format

Nick

Posted 2007-10-15 6:38 PM (#97933)
Subject: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

http://www.ppaonline.co.uk/download/myth_of_core_stability.pdf

Hi people,
Thought some of you who practice bandha might be interested in this article-it argues that teaching people to contract the abdomen may be ill-founded or harmful, such as we do in astanga yoga. I thought it might create an interesting discussion. Personally, I think there can be little doubt that contracting certain muscles appropiately for each posture and movement, will aid in the perofrmance of that posture or movement, but that by teaching 'bandha' as such, i.e. 'hold that same contraction throughout the practice'-is perhaps not correct. What do you think?

Nick

Posted 2007-10-16 9:30 AM (#97961 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

man, i have to download the thing? such a pain. . . lol

thanks for the link. when i read it and have some time to think about it, i'll weigh in.

agajanana

Posted 2007-10-16 11:10 AM (#97970 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

FWIW, i was told not to squeeze the abdominal region or perineum. instead, it's a lifting sensation in the anus and the navel region, much more subtle, that comes with the inhalation.

interestingly enough, in the hatha yoga pradipika, mula bandha is described as a slight contraction of the anus, not the perineum as is commonly taught. i've also heard from friends who have studied in the AYRI that pattabhi jois says the same thing.

Posted 2007-10-16 12:54 PM (#97974 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

i think the article is actually very specific, and i'm not sure that the "core training" that is refered to in the article is the same as mula and uddiyana bandhas and how they're practiced in vinyasa/astanga yogas.

i agree with him in any points about "core training" (most of which i do not agree with), and how the body works in concert, and how the TrA are not the only muscles involved in preventing back pain.

that is, there are so many types of back pain, and so many imbalances and origins, that weak TrA or abdominal muscles is really only one. i've seen it from poor posture, tight hamstrings, hip injuries, and of course, weak back muscles (which is a huge component seeing as most people can't bend backwards anymore it seems). . .and a myriad of others.

so, i agree that it's "wrong" to focus on the TrA muscles so extensively when it could be a combination of other problems. . .

Posted 2007-10-17 1:04 PM (#98064 - in reply to #97974)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Nick,
Thank you for a very interesting article.

I think that bandhas are often somewhat overemphasized in Astanga yoga. To be specifically thinking about or consciously flexing any muscle or muscle group throughout a yoga practice does not make sense to me. Muscle use is dynamic and not static. In other activities one never holds a flexed muscle group for an extended period of time. For example: in martial arts, you flex your abdominal muscles when kicking or punching or when being kicked or punched. If you kept them flexed all the time, you would lose the added force or protection offered by flexing the muscles and be wasting a substantial amount of energy. In playing the French horn (or other brass instruments) you need very strong abdominal muscles to play high notes. If you keep your abs flexed all the time, you not only lose control of the intensity of the air column, you are focusing on one single action instead of focusing on the totality. Performance is severly impacted by focusing on any single action.

I am interested in the opinions of all you Astanga people out there as to what the actual benefits of continuous bandha usage are. If the goal is generating heat, you generate heat by flexing any muscles but you are also wasting energy. You don't hold on to that heat beacuse the body is self-regulating and you sweat to cool off. The internal temperature of the body stays in a very narrow range no matter what we do.

Nick

Posted 2007-10-17 1:44 PM (#98070 - in reply to #98064)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Jim,
Good points-this use of the word 'bandha' doesn't do the action any justice-it encourages some students to develop a bandha which actually interferes with, rather than complements, the path to better health, good function, and optimal performance.

Nick

TampaEric

Posted 2007-10-17 2:20 PM (#98072 - in reply to #98064)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

This article does not relate to ashtanga yoga or bandhas at all.

The purpose of holding mula bandha is to stimulate the root chakra, Muladhara. Think of it as a bundle of nerves at the bottom of your torso. It does not waste energy. It used throughout the practice and is a big part of the jumping. It is not holding your stomach muscles tight nor necessarily holding the anus too tight. But it is natural source of power

Uddiyana Bandha is sometimes confused with holding your abdominals tight. But it is not. In the practice it is merely a lengthening of the waist and a lift in the chest (heart center). Full uddiyana is only practiced in pranayama. In full uddiyana you draw you entire belly up into the rib cage.

Most of the postures naturally create bandha and if you use ujjayii breathing this all occurs without extra effort.

Posted 2007-10-17 3:40 PM (#98079 - in reply to #98072)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Eric,
Thanks for clarifying. I have seen pictures of Astanga people doing poses where they were using full Uddiyana Bandha in all poses and thought that it might be a general practice. I understand what you mean about lengthening the torso and lifting the chest cavity.
Thanks,
Jim

Nick

Posted 2007-10-17 5:45 PM (#98085 - in reply to #98072)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Eric,
I just wondered if you would clarify things a little for me. Hope you don't mind.

"The purpose of holding mula bandha is to stimulate the root chakra, Muladhara. Think of it as a bundle of nerves at the bottom of your torso."
In all my anatomy studies, I've never come across this bundle of nerves-there several nerve plexus, but I don't know of one in the pelvic floor, or around it.

"Uddiyana Bandha is sometimes confused with holding your abdominals tight. But it is not. In the practice it is merely a lengthening of the waist and a lift in the chest (heart center). Full uddiyana is only practiced in pranayama. In full uddiyana you draw you entire belly up into the rib cage."
When you say a lengthening of the waist, that means that the abdominal muscles must be activating in a pattern which dictates the action itself-so the abdominal muscles must be going through some change in their tone-what this article is saying is that if the tone is inappropiate, then the action is inappropiate.
Like you say, this article is not about astanga yoga-but there is a huge emphasis in the western world on 'core' training, and the article is merely pointing out that there might be cause to doubt the techniques used. In my own teaching, I constantly have to re-educate students who have been taught to contract the pelvic floor and abdominal muscles incorrectly, and who are then startled by their rapid progress, better performance, and ability to avoid injuries and pain. So I think there is cause to re-examine how bandha is taught.
Take care
Nick

TampaEric

Posted 2007-10-18 9:22 AM (#98129 - in reply to #98085)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

I can only speak to my body as to how it feels to engage mula bandha. I said "think of it as a bundle" You can call it plexus or horse tails, etc. To me it is a bit of drawing down on the pelvis and up towards the navel and in through the anal sphincter.

There's no doubt that this area of our body is extremely special and reacts to stimulus. It seems to protect me or allow me to do amazing things.

If you're not comfortable with mula bandha than don't use it.

There is an automatic response to the postures that engages uddiyana. There is no need to re-examine something that occurs naturally. Your body gets taught a lesson by the postures. You can't inform the body by gross anatomy terms to do something and then expect it to happen because you have a name for it. Your body tells you what is possible. Not the other way around.

I haven't had any trouble with injury, students or performance. The whole practice has been such a blessing for me and I hope it has for my students too.

Based on your posts here you seem to have this need to but everything under eye and define it with gross anatomy. This is not my practice or my teaching. It is your journey. I'm listening, I'm curious. But with respect, I don't have these questions. I have sensations, whether they are nerves firing or nadis unwinding, I couldn't say.

Nick

Posted 2007-10-18 6:51 PM (#98165 - in reply to #98129)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Eric,
Well, whatever your journey is, that's fine by me

But this is a forum, where debate can occur-and that was what I put the article up for. No need for you to feel whatever, just to share your experiences and ways of teaching

Nick

Cyndi

Posted 2007-10-18 8:57 PM (#98169 - in reply to #98129)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

TampaEric - 2007-10-18 9:22 AM

Based on your posts here you seem to have this need to but everything under eye and define it with gross anatomy. This is not my practice or my teaching. It is your journey. I'm listening, I'm curious. But with respect, I don't have these questions. I have sensations, whether they are nerves firing or nadis unwinding, I couldn't say.

With all due respect for you, Nick...every time I read your posts, this is the thought that goes through my wretched mind,

HOWEVER, what keeps me going is this...ever seen the X-Files?? Mulder has a poster on his back wall that says, "I WANT TO BELIEVE" with a space ship. In my mind I keep saying....."I WANT TO LEARN",

kulkarnn

Posted 2007-10-18 10:14 PM (#98186 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

I agree with the facts :

- that there are some parts of Yoga exercise that can be related to Physical Anatomy

- that there are some parts of Yoga exercise that can NOT be related to Physical Anatomy, mostly due lack of complete understanding of both by any one person, because the one who looks at one way can not completely look at the other way. It is like the one who looks at the world only through 5 senses is at a loss when it comes to statements containing spirit, soul, etc.

- and that, there are some parts of Yoga exercise that actually can be explained through anatomy, however some people go by an esoteric explanation even though it can be wrong. For example, some people read in Yoga books that doing a head stand improves memory. Well that does not happen. Actually, memory improves only if one does memoriazation.

- and that there are some parts of Yoga exercise that actually can NOT be explained through anatomy or even esoterics of asana, however some have an imagination that they shall attain spiritual goal by doing asana alone. For example, some people explain Patanjali Yoga Sutras using Bodily Terms.

ETC.

OM ShantiH

Nick

Posted 2007-10-19 2:24 AM (#98208 - in reply to #98169)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Cyndi,
Yes, I can see that thought process going through the minds of others

But really, to me, A & P study complemements yoga- they can both dissolve the illusion that is created by the ego, and that, for me, learning about 'gross anatomy' actually involves cutting down barriers that are mental, spiritual, and physical.
I'll have to get back to those x-files

I like your take on believing and learning-if we take that into the present subject, why should we believe what we are told? Our teachers should be giving us a rationale for physical exercise to complement our spiritual growth-so in my own little way, I would like to help the human world to expand spiritually, not by directing them spiritually, but by working on one aspect of the mental/physical/spiritual triad.
Sorry, just woken up

Nick

TampaEric

Posted 2007-10-19 9:46 AM (#98223 - in reply to #98165)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

I do share my experiences. I mentioned how the breathing and the postures engage bandha. I described in detail what is feels like in my own body. Is that not sharing my experiences and ways of teaching?

It is you that decided to not reply to the content of my post.

You seem bent on discrediting the system of ashtanga yoga as it has been taught by Jois and teachers. Whereas I'm trying to pursue it as a lifetime study.

Cyndi

Posted 2007-10-19 9:58 AM (#98224 - in reply to #98208)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

YES Nick,

I think it is very important that we keep open minds when it comes to learning our bodies....it definitely sure can't hurt us. If anything, I find it very useful to blend everything I've learned...it's very empowering to say the least,

I have to say this, some things I had to figure out myself, that part did come just by doing and at the time, it was perfectly fine, for me. Then on the other hand, having a teacher that understands, knows and taught the anatomy aspect took my practice to deeper levels. By having this understanding, it somehow keeps you really connected to the...geez, I hate saying this...the "science" of it, but at the same time...you get to enjoy the other aspect of yoga too, it's not like its going to rob you of that...hell NO

At first it can be intimidating as hell, especially when some of us have been in our heads too dam long!! I kinda like coming back down to earth, especially with what I know now,

Presentation is an art. Nick, you do a pretty good job in your presentation, I've only seen you get carried away a couple of times,

We all know that anatomy is sooo friggin boring...kinda reminds me of the ole' P.E. class here in America. Although, sometimes now I truly wish my old P.E. teachers would show up to my yoga class, they'd be so proud,

Posted 2007-10-19 10:22 AM (#98230 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

i find that when i teach alignment, i teach anatomy, and i talk about it at the bone, muscle, connective tissue, arterial, and "feeling" levels. it's really dynamic. they're certainly not disconnected.

i talk about how form and function work together, and then we do it at the feeling level of touching it with fingers (our own bodies or another's depending upon the where of the muscle/whatever), and then we start to feel it in motion (contracting, releasing, etc), and then we get a sense of the "energy" of the space.

none of these things is disconnected.

Cyndi

Posted 2007-10-19 11:09 AM (#98243 - in reply to #98230)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

zoebird - 2007-10-19 10:22 AM

i find that when i teach alignment, i teach anatomy, and i talk about it at the bone, muscle, connective tissue, arterial, and "feeling" levels. it's really dynamic. they're certainly not disconnected.

Absolutely, of course!!

What I have observed in the Western world is that sooo many people have a difficult time keeping it all together. I think it has to do with our genetic upbringing in the Christian realm of duality or dualism. It's not an easy thing to just break out of. It's also not easy when you discover the other side of the connection...you want to linger and relish it because it feels so dam good and because that aspect has been missing from our lives for sooo long. But, sometime along our yoga journey, we have to learn how to bring ourselves to full circle, I call it coming back down to reality with our bodies...or geez, don't that call that YOGA,

There are many aspects to the physical and mental of what I'm trying to convey here. Sorry, if this isn't making much sense. Okay, that's it, I'm leaving now. I'm heading to Tennessee this weekend...my sister wants to take me to a country/western place to do country line dancing. This should be lots of fun. Wonder how I could incorporate my yoga with this??

none of these things is disconnected.

ZB, I'm going to correct your English here..."None of these things is disconnected"???

How bout' "none of these things are disconnected", heeheee

Posted 2007-10-19 11:30 AM (#98251 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

cyndi:

i hope you have a good time in TN.

i'm off for the retreat this weekend! we're full!

Cyndi

Posted 2007-10-19 11:37 AM (#98254 - in reply to #98251)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

That's right...have a great time and best wishes for a successful retreat. I guess GJ is already on the road huh??

Nick

Posted 2007-10-19 12:53 PM (#98263 - in reply to #98223)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Eric,
Ok, let's start again

I didn't get a chance to reply to your post properly yet. I too am bent on a lifetime study of astanga yoga, so we at least have that in common.
You may not think the article is not relevant to astanga yoga, I'm not saying it is-but I do think there may be a correlation between the article and the way bandha have been taught to me and countless others. As long as what you are doing works for you, that's briliant.

Nick

Nick

Posted 2007-10-19 12:54 PM (#98264 - in reply to #98224)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

" Presentation is an art. Nick, you do a pretty good job in your presentation, I've only seen you get carried away a couple of times, "

Accepted, sorry

Too keen

Nick

lewellen17

Posted 2007-10-22 11:45 PM (#98451 - in reply to #97933)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

OK, I haven't (yet) read the article in as much depth as I would like, but it does provide food for thought. I don't "get" pilates; the one class I went to I couldn't feel a thing. Assuming I was doing everything wrong, I appealed to the teacher for help, and was assured that all was fine. My friend (who had dragged me along), warned me my abdomen would be burning the next day. Nope. Nada. Not a thing.

I try to practise bandha, I really do, but I don't think I'm isolating any specific muscles. Again, maybe I'm just missing something?
That said, does anyone (and be honest now) really keep uddiyana and mula bandhas engaged throughout the entire practice? Is that possible? I use the breath and and bandhas as subtle reminders of one another - at the end of each exhale, slightly contract the belly and draw up, readying the body for the next inhale and pulling the breath into the thoracic region rather than the abdomen. Each inhale reminds me to draw up mula bandha. However, with each and every cycle of breath, I have to consciously reaffirm those bandhas. No way could I hold them continuously the whole series.

Interestingly, I came back to yoga after a 3 year hiatus, after my 3rd child was born, notably because my lower back was starting to ache (for the first time in my life). Now, my back is fine. But that may have been just because I was exercising - bending, twisting, jumping, sweating - rather that the specific application of uddiyana bandha (which was completely non-existent after 3 kids, anyway!). And here I thought it was my superior abs!

This article is just a review on the ppaonline website, yes? Do you know if it has been published in a peer-reviewed journal? I didn't go to the trouble of reading any of the references.... Science geek that I am, though, I undoubtedly will. Thanks Nick for posting this one

Lisa

Nick

Posted 2007-10-23 3:45 AM (#98459 - in reply to #98451)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Location: London, England

Hi Lisa,
There's another article called "core stability-pure stupidity" or something like that-but for more authoritive stuff, read anything by Stuart McGill, from the university of Waterloo in Canada-he teaches abdominal bracing, and outlines the dangers and faulty thinking behind the hollowing of the abdominal wall.

Nick

TampaEric

Posted 2007-10-23 8:39 AM (#98471 - in reply to #98451)
Subject: RE: To Bandha or not to Bandha

Hey Lisa,

I use bandha throughout the entire practice. It starts automatically with the breathing.

I don't remember ever being completely conscience of it. It started automatically and seems to create a smooth even breath no matter what position are you in.

Congrats on the 3 little ones. My wife and I had a baby last year and it sure has been wonderful.

Eric

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