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| zoebird,
I really hope that you are able to resolve this unfortunate incident happily for all.
jimg |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | What a nightmare! But I have to chime in and say that I too have never heard of a Group Fitness program being run quite this badly. I can't believe that there is no set time schedule and also that there isn't just one person setting the schedule- very odd that other instructors and trainers could just add in classes and that you could change the time of your class around. It sounds like anarchy.
I teach at a fairly large chain and we have schedule changes 3X per year. The Group Ex Mgr sets the schedule and individual instructors are not allowed to make changes among themselves.
The lateness is another issue and a personal pet peeve of mine. While the KM people in your incident were clearly out of line, the 4:30 instructor who ran 10 minutes over is the one who really created the problem. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Sorry ZB for all this. I wish you all the best in finding your "perfect" place one day, 
This is the very reason I don't do yoga in the gyms. I live in a remote area here in the mountains. There are 3 gyms that are 30 mins plus for me to get to. They both have yoga. Every time I think I want to try it out, I go in and scope the area out. From an intuitive persepective, I see all the things you were talking about when I'm in the gym...just from walking in the front door and having a less than 5 minute conversation with the front desk host. Sooo, meanwhile, I will just keep my college class, even though I only have 3 time slots to choose from per week. I just manage my time better to be able to attend.
What really blows my mind is the gym mentality. I cannot understand why they can't get their acts together on these issues. I see it in almost all the gyms I visit. The reason I visit them is because Satyam is a body builder and he's always needing a drop in gym when he comes home on the weekend. There is this one that the local hospital owns. They keep the A/C at 60 degrees. Both of us have told them how BAD it is for your health and that all those elderly people (there's a bunch of elderly people that attend) should not be working out like that. They have deaf ears. Every time they try to get me to join, I always remind them of this. Do they care?? I don't think so. I think most people are totally UN-MINDFUL and I'm so glad we have choices. It's really unfortunate because exercise/fitness/yoga asana's should be integrated together in a way that everyone can benefit from it. But, this Western world does not see it that way...oh well, it'll be their own demise. |
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| GJ:
well, it's one of those instances where my weakness is my strength and my strength is my weakness. one of my strengths is not getting upset about most of the small stuff. but for some, this makes me seem like a pushover or easy target. then, when i finally get to the point where i stand up, ryan says i do it so quickly and well that it just *stops* the person. there's no room for parley. they expect parley or to simply "win."
my lesson, then, is to stand up sooner. when things first start, calmly bring it up and set a boundary. i have been practicing this for two weeks, and i think the universe is just offering me really OBVIOUS opportunities to work out my 'professionalism' and 'stand up soon' muscles.
because a previous me would have laughed at them and let it be, kabitzed with my students about it a bit until it blew over--and the the others think that i'm in agreement, that they've "won" (whatever that means to them). but, because i have to practice standing up sooner, i got a couple of good opportunities.
this was/is one of them.
Jackie:
this is an chain too. but, individually operated. it's one of two gyms owned by one guy.
thankfully, one of the two gyms was recently sold to new owners who really do have their stuff together. i've talked to them at length, and they want to add at least three more yoga classes with me and three more with the other yoga teacher (if she's available) or hiring more yoga teachers for those classes. they want me to talk with the interior designer about setting up a separate yoga/pilates/tai chi room that will have it's own heat/coolling, sound system, clean floors, etc. sounds great to me!
so, it may be that i stop that 1 class at the "bad" gym and then add the classes to the other gym. most of my students are members there already (previously, you could belong to either gym and go to either gym for classes, etc), so only 3 people would have to switch their memberships. I don't know whether or not they will, but they could.
looks like the problem may be resolved in a variety of ways.
Cyndi:
Yes, gym mentality is strange. Ryan wants to collect his own equipment and work out on his own. He doens't need much, since he does so much functional training. he currently goes to the gym where i work (the one that will have new owners) and he thinks the attitude of most people there really stinks (and in gyms in general).
we've talked about starting a small yoga and personal training studio. at the very least, all of m clients could become members and their DHs can use the equipment while the ladies take the yoga class.
we found a building in our cutie down town that might work well--two apartments above, a large space below and a large basement space. we can rent out one apartment, live in the other, use the main floor for entry area, work out space, massage rooms and bathrooms, and use the basement for a bag room of storage and a front, large yoga space (it has "skylights" so even the basement gets natural light.
of course, then we have to decide to stay here. but, it's an option.
LOL it's a nice idea anyway. LOL
UPDATE:
first, nick said he would call and he didn't. I stopped by today and was basically blown off by him. very annoying. anyway, he gave my number (without asking) to the KM instructor who said he was going to call me an apologize.
of course, i still expect him to apologize to the class--because they were very rude to them!
the KM instructor did pay his rent for the last two months, and so they're keeping him on. class time will still be at 8, but they will respect my classroom, my authority over it, and my clients as we are exiting.
otherwise, the gym owner is a really terrible manager. while the issue was handled quickly, the lack of communication and professionalism is extreme.
so, we'll see.
Edited by zoebird 2007-11-09 11:29 AM
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| Cyndi - 2007-11-09 4:01 AM
But, this Western world does not see it that way...oh well, it'll be their own demise.
Cyndi,
You are part of this "Western world". This "Western world", our society is us! This "Western world" includes everyone who lives here (whether born here or not) and how we, each of us, relate to each other. The problem is not "them". It is us; all of us.
Namaste,
Jim |
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| naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.
i think it's fair to say that there is an 'us' and 'them' even though we are all "us" and "them."
----
further update:
Yoga vs Krav Maga--Yoga wins!
apparently, the KM people are being told not to return. the instructor called me to apologize. i insisted that he apologize to the class next wednesday, that he do this in front of his students during his class time.
he didn't want to do this, and i insisted because his harm to them was certainly greater than any harm to me. my ego isn't "that" wrapped up in it. LOL! afterall, he's not the first guy to barge into my room and not 'respect-my-author-i-tye!'
he said he needed to think about it, that he would call me back to let me know.
a few minutes later, i get a call from phil. he informs me that the krav maga people will not be returning. apparently, he told phil that i didn't accept his apology and that what i wanted was unnecessary and to see if Phil could push me to leave or move my class.
phil said that whatever i felt was necessary is necessary, and that if he couldn't do that, then he could find another place.
the guy decided to leave.
wow! leave instead of apologize. crazy.
anyway, i'm glad it's done, and apparently they're going to try and get another class in after that time, and those in the classes before me were reminded to be on time.
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 1:07 PM
apparently, the KM people are being told not to return. the instructor called me to apologize. i insisted that he apologize to the class next wednesday, that he do this in front of his students during his class time.
he didn't want to do this, and i insisted because his harm to them was certainly greater than any harm to me. my ego isn't "that" wrapped up in it. LOL! afterall, he's not the first guy to barge into my room and not 'respect-my-author-i-tye!'
wow! leave instead of apologize. crazy.
Well, while I completely feel he should apologize, what you're asking from him requires a great deal of humility. He basically has to get up in front of a large number of people, at your request, and apologize. Very humbling. By 'forcing' him into this position, you've taken a position of dominance, which is probably not sitting very well with somebody who is this aggressive.
Regardless, I think it's great that they won't be coming back. They sound like trouble. |
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| admittedly, GJ, that was part of my intent.
the truth is, you do wrong, you make amends. it's hard to do, it is humbling, but it's still important.
i felt that it was right to defend myself and require this basic human decency. |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 10:07 AM
naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.
i think it's fair to say that there is an 'us' and 'them' even though we are all "us" and "them."
zoebird,
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)? The concept of "us" and "them", comes from our primitive tribal survival needs to identify with a tribe for mutual protection. We now live in another social reality where this thinking more often leads to hate, racism, war, and even genocide. The problem with the karate people was a result of their seeing the yoga people as "them". Again, "our culture" is us, whether it is mindful or not. It is the sum total of our relationships.
Namaste,
jimg
Edited by jimg 2007-11-09 2:30 PM
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| jimg - 2007-11-09 2:29 PM
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)?
first, "being mindful" isn't agreeing with my way of thinking. being mindful is typically a series of socially understood and pervasive constructs of basic courtesy. many people are not mindful (courteous) on a regular basis in our current culture, which is demonstrated through their actions.
but, i am not the one "setting the standard." it is a cultural standard.
and i should also add here (edited to), that there are few people who are chronically mindful. thus, i can always be one of "us" the mindful ones while also being one of "them" the unmindful ones at any given time. but i can only judge that according to my own observations, and usually i don't notice when i'm not being mindful until something obvious happens.
Again, "our culture" is us, whether it is mindful or not. It is the sum total of our relationships.
you must not have gotten the nuance of what i said. I asserted that one can be both an "us" and "them" at any given time, and are usually both at all times. this is referential to the fact that we are all a part of "our culture" and that there are differences of standards in "our culture" as a whole based on which 'aspects' or 'subcultures' we belong to.
as yoga people, we might assert that the applied philosophies of yoga are a standard that is "higher" than our general culture, and an evangelical christian group may do the same. And if we go all "dr phil" on it, the only way we can measure whether or not it is "mindful" or "appropriate" behavior is to ask "how's that working for ya?"
if the general culture--which is multifaceted, diverse, and different while still being a larger, cohesive construct (eg, "american culture" or "western culture")--has a sort of general standard, and that standard can increase and decrease over time based on the practices of individuals--we are always an us (the whole culture is an us), and we are also always a "them." and we also always have a "them" because one can say "i am catholic, and those who do not believe like me are not catholic."
it doesn't necessarily breed hatred, genocide, or war to denote that there are differences between sub cultures and different perspectives among individuals. it's not to say that being "other" than the way i think or come to a concept of "mindfulness" is the only way of being or thinking.
but, i also can't accept all behavior as "acceptable" or "mindful" behavior.
i think that most agree that "they" in the KM instructors did this to "us" the yoga class, while we held no animosity towards them or provoked them, have no qualms with them or with KM, and i assume they have no qualms with yoga.
but their behavior was far beyond the basic constructs of our shared, cultural concept of common decency, and it certainly lacked a level of mindfulness in that regard.
thus, i can say that--in that moment--i was "more mindful" than "they" were, and that it is likely that if their future behavior demonstrates the same level of aggression, that "they" are behaving in an unmindful, problematic way.
What's the solution? i believe it's important to have boundaries and social dictates that are liberal enough to allow for personal individuation and freedoms, but that also honor the sovereignty and safety of those around us.
Edited by zoebird 2007-11-09 3:13 PM
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 2:15 PM
admittedly, GJ, that was part of my intent.
Okay, so my point is that you've basically attempted to face down the teacher of an entire Karate group, by yourself. And you wonder why people are intimidate by you. I think I know why, you've got inner strength. ;)
the truth is, you do wrong, you make amends. it's hard to do, it is humbling, but it's still important.
i felt that it was right to defend myself and require this basic human decency.
I agree, I'm just attempting to point something out. |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 3:06 PM
jimg - 2007-11-09 2:29 PM
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)?
first, "being mindful" isn't agreeing with my way of thinking. being mindful is typically a series of socially understood and pervasive constructs of basic courtesy. many people are not mindful (courteous ) on a regular basis in our current culture, which is demonstrated through their actions.
but, i am not the one "setting the standard." it is a cultural standard.
and i should also add here (edited to ), that there are few people who are chronically mindful. thus, i can always be one of "us" the mindful ones while also being one of "them" the unmindful ones at any given time. but i can only judge that according to my own observations, and usually i don't notice when i'm not being mindful until something obvious happens.
Which brings up an interesting question, when to say something. I've always found it amusing that the book of proverbs contains conflicting advice on this one. There's a verse that says "Confront a fool in his folly." There's another one that says exactly the reverse. There's also another one that says "A wise man welcomes rebuke, but a fool shuns it." So I try to be pretty selective whom I rebuke, since most people just take it as an attack.
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| zoebird,
I don't think that you understood that I was not faulting your behavior in any way or insinuating that the karate folks were anything but totally rude. From the facts that you presented, you were correct to stand up for yourself and your students and I am pleased that it turned out well for you.
When you said "naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.", it sounded to me as though you were differentiating between society at large (which is unmindful) and yourself and a few others (who try to be mindful). Whether true or false, this differentiation, this "us" (the mindful ones) and "them" (everyone else) thinking is what leads to conflict and all the resultant suffering. It is tribalism at it's most basic. Look at history. Look at the world today. You can't have this kind of conflict without an "us" and a "them".
z-"because one can say "i am catholic, and those who do not believe like me are not catholic."
it doesn't necessarily breed hatred, genocide, or war."
j-How is this not exactly what has been happening for centuries?
At this point we are having a dialog. It is still all us and us. As soon as one of us starts seeing the other as different from ourself, we no longer have a dialog, but rather a conflict. We must then have a winner and a loser. I am much happier with you and I both winning, as well as our entire global society winning!
Namaste,
jimg |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Oh no, jim!!!  You have got zoebird into lawyer mode!!!! This is a complete no-no on this board. We do not encourage the bird to go into legalese mode. Very frowned upon as it makes for ridiculously long posts (the girl types like the wind!) and we all run out of reading time. Remember, many of us read the boards on company time - not me of course, I work in a place that is in the stone age (or at least crayon age...) as far as communications go - and we don't want to have to explain Green Jello or Bruce to our co-workers.  Consider this fair warning.  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Most of us have a pretty clear understanding about the "us" and "them" concept. Just because I say that someone is not being mindful or whatever is not that I'm putting my self above or superior to that individual. As yoga aspirants, most of us have the trained ability to see alot of things that most people would not even dare touch upon. Having that said, there is a "right" way, most definitely. There is also "wrong". I don't believe in that airy fairy nonsense of there not being a right or wrong way just to have an excuse for "bad" behavior. That's just BS. Being in this Western world today is like being stuck in a room full of children misbehaving - very badly. About the only thing you can do is "observe" and be a "witness" to their crimes against humanity, nature and our precious earth. Some of us take the road less travelled. We do our darndest to set examples, speak out and represent Truth. We practice what Ghandi said..."We are the change we want the world to bee"....we live from that place and we also observe from that place. No one ever said it was going to be easy...in fact, I see that our world is only going to get worse and worse. The good news is there are people like us who assist others that are ready and willing to accept the truth, are wanting something meaningful in their lives and are looking for someone to help guide them on their path. If ZB feels her challenge is worth all her hard effort, then I support her, 150%. I also support her if she told them all to *** off, too!!  |
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| actually, i did tell him to F-off. to his face, when he put his hands on my student to "usher" her out the door. first, i said back off. and then he got into my face and yelled "you need to get out now!" and while he let go of my friend/student, i said "and you need to back the F off!"
and then i calmly walked across the room and got my things together.
also, i think it can be argued that while some catholics have been in an us/them mentality that has caused war, most modern catholics, or irish, or yoga practitioners, or whatevers, are in a situation where we feel that "live and let live" is the best policy--and that we can see and honor differences, and that we can see and honor what is right and wrong.
i do not really believe, for example, that the neo-nazi agenda is appropriate or helpful. dare i say it--it is wrong. i understand it's impulses and origins, i understand how extreme that "us/them" mentality is. but i also notice that one can be "us/them" about things in a kinder, more obvious way.
I am not an insect. sometimes, too many insects come into my home. i must kill "them" in order to keep my home safe and disease free. one or two of the critters, and it's fine to usher them outside gently. one or two of them--depending on the type--are welcome to move right in (i particularly like spiders in the home, as they usher other bugs into the next life with great gusto). and for the most part, i really like insects, and i also recognize that insects and I are one (from the yoga perspective).
but it doesn't mean that i need to live with a bunch of scorpions in my house, or that i need to say that it's a good idea.
if someone else wants to live with scorpions, that's all fine and dandy--it's not my way. i'm not one of 'Them' (neither scorpion nor one who wants to live with several free roamers in the house). i am with those of "us" who are not scorpions and do not want to live with them in the house.
i have no animosity. i'm not going to start a war against scorpions or scorpion-loving people. i'm not going to be violent towards them.
because i know about and believe in common decency. it's this common decency that allows us to live together as a larger "us" as in, Those Americans Who Love Scorpions and Those Americans Who Do Not Love Scorpions."
now, scorpion pose--i like it. i like to "be" a scorpion in that way. but, other Americans or Westerners or Earthlings or Spirit Beings may not like that so much.
but it's common decency that helps us all get along.
and when one doesn't do what is commonly decent--well, then i think it's important that we're willing to say "hey, that's wrong!"
and, btw, most everyone agrees that unprovoked aggression is inappropriate at the very least.
"the bird" (heheheh ) |
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| Okay, so my point is that you've basically attempted to face down the teacher of an entire Karate group, by yourself. And you wonder why people are intimidate by you. I think I know why, you've got inner strength. ;)
i have to say, this gave me a chuckle. it's probably true.
i mean, i am strong and that is pretty obvious. i also thought on this a bit more. on the whole thing about me being weird a bit more.
one thing that i realized is that i tend to react to these sorts of things in two ways depending upon the pressures involved.
the basic, of course, is that i can take a lot of annoying behavior/bad behavior from others without much comment, and go through the internal processing of it, and then when i'm finally frustrated, i go from 0-60 for "full stop now!"
this might be passive aggressive (yet to be determined). i mean, at the most basic level, it is by definition. i'm very passive until i feel cornered such that i have to be aggressive to the point of stopping the action. so, ok, seems like the very definition. LOL!
so, depending on the pressures, i have two kinds of aggression. first, if i feel that i need to 'stay' in the situation with the individual (as an employer or whatever), then i shut down completely. i'm polite and professional, basically civil, but there's no warmth. anything the person offers me by way of compliment or criticism, or whatever they may want from me (many want to "help" me with things), anything that is beyond a basic, civil relationship is completely rebuffed, entirely ignored.
this is definitely "passive aggressive." it usually infuriates the other person completely and ultimately they break down in tears. i've noticed this happen a lot. sometimes, it takes only a few days of this "i no longer deal with you" treatment, and for others a few weeks. but typically, the 'authority' who was basically harassing me for days, weeks, or months is incredibly upset and i'm a "cold, had person" who is "unethical and immoral" who has "really wounded them."
it's very interesting. I never understood how hard it can be for people to feel "ignored." I suppose it is hurtful, but it's also self-protective.
the other reaction that i have is to simply stop a person in their tracks with a very direct and emphatic 'cut it out.' it typically scares the crap out of the person, they end up looking shell-shocked while it's happening, and shortly thereafter they're crying about it, and i'm "a cold, hard person" who is "unethical and immoral" and who has "really wounded them."
of course, there's no recognition on their part of *why* i behaved in this hurtful way and there's no recognition of the fact that they were being very annoying at least and at most--and in most cases--quite abusive towards me (usually emotionally).
So, i watched Nature.
I'm sorry already that this post is long for those who are reading in their spare time. Just skip it. LOL
As i watched nature, there was Mama Lioness with her cubs. she's sunning herself and the cubs are playing. they get a bit rough, and she puts her paw on them softly. the settle, then start playing again, getting rough, and she puts the paw on them and gives the "the eye." they settle and then start playing again, getting rough, and this time it's paw, with soft claws slightly out, and the eye. and so it goes, until she gets up and pushes them down to let them know.
my method is they play and play and play and play and play and play and play and when i've had it, i'm claws, teeth, tail ferocious.
And i wondered why they looked shell shocked. why they cried.
silly me.
yes, now i see how it's so darn intimidating. msot people would stand up before and do the parley. most people would set the boundary.
but i give no indication of trouble until i've had enough, and when i've had enough, it's 0-60. it's extreme, then.
Ok, now i get it.
and so, i have to start putting the paw out. And, i had the chance this morning.
same gym, other location, different trainer. he moved the 9:00 abs class into our 9:30 class time without asking or anything. we just show up one day and are told about it. my class kindly moves to 8:30 after much discussion between us as to whether we wanted 8:30 or 10:00. we wanted 9:30, but alas. . .
so, today, i start class at 8:35 and i go until 9:30. I had to wait for the students to get there (there were zero at 8:30 and 6 at 8:35). at 9:25, franko looks in scowling. of course, we have until 9:30 officially. at 9:28, he looks in again, scowling. Each time, i just give him the gimlet eye.
at 9:30, i go and open the door. my folks are cleaning up, his are coming in. he comes in last and angrily asks me to be sure to end my class a little early so that he can get started at 9:30 because he has a 10:00 client...
at this point i gently cut him off and say "franko, i'm not responsible for your scheduling. you chose to move the class to 9:30, and it was gracious of my students to accommodate you without complaint. when you taught before us, you would often end 5 or even 10 minutes late without apology, and we never spoke up about it. today, i ended on time. If you struggle to end you class by 10, perhaps you should put a buffer between your class and your personal training clients. but i'm not responsible for your scheduling, and i'm not going to take attitude or criticism about my class time on account of it."
it was all kind and calm, very clear.
he apologized, mentioned that he's frustrated about something else, and that he was glad we were willing to move our class for him. I said, "no problem" and we left.
So, gentle paw press is enough. if i have to do it again, i can.
but, i'm learning. |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 10:23 PM
the basic, of course, is that i can take a lot of annoying behavior/bad behavior from others without much comment, and go through the internal processing of it, and then when i'm finally frustrated, i go from 0-60 for "full stop now!"
This sounds pretty normal, you don't want to spend all your time calling people on every transgression, that's being overly controlling, and critical.
this might be passive aggressive (yet to be determined).
I don't see it like that at all. Passive aggressive has a lot more to do with indirectly attacking people, particularly in dishonest ways. ie undermining them Usually people who do this don't feel that they have the strength to stand up to the other person, so they do little things to slowly chip away at their strength.
so, depending on the pressures, i have two kinds of aggression. first, if i feel that i need to 'stay' in the situation with the individual (as an employer or whatever), then i shut down completely. i'm polite and professional, basically civil, but there's no warmth. anything the person offers me by way of compliment or criticism, or whatever they may want from me (many want to "help" me with things), anything that is beyond a basic, civil relationship is completely rebuffed, entirely ignored.
Okay, I do the same thing. I don't think there's anything that requires you to like or be nice to somebody. I think it's a lot better for both parties if you are, so I usually try to find something redeeming about the people I have to deal with like this.
it's very interesting. I never understood how hard it can be for people to feel "ignored." I suppose it is hurtful, but it's also self-protective.
Oh, it's incredibly harmful. It's a really really deep seeded drive to, the desire for "strokes" of various kinds. Baby's that don't get held or touched die, and everything grows from this basic need. So when people interact with other people, there's always some stroking going on on some level. Some of it can be very disfunctional, but there's always some stroking going on. By not playing, you are threatening people on some level, but the solution is, ie how to deal with them without losing your integrity, and genuineness is a hard question.
of course, there's no recognition on their part of *why* i behaved in this hurtful way and there's no recognition of the fact that they were being very annoying at least and at most--and in most cases--quite abusive towards me (usually emotionally).
Oh course not, if they really realized what was going on, from your side, or they'd probably do something else. Most people really do have the best intuitions.
at this point i gently cut him off and say "franko, i'm not responsible for your scheduling. you chose to move the class to 9:30, and it was gracious of my students to accommodate you without complaint. when you taught before us, you would often end 5 or even 10 minutes late without apology, and we never spoke up about it. today, i ended on time. If you struggle to end you class by 10, perhaps you should put a buffer between your class and your personal training clients. but i'm not responsible for your scheduling, and i'm not going to take attitude or criticism about my class time on account of it."
it was all kind and calm, very clear.
And you also had a good deal of ammunition by this point, which is one advantage of waiting a bit. Often times I find myself in a situation where I know what's going on almost from day one, but I really don't have anything but my intuition to back it up. By waiting, it becomes much easier to build a good case against it, without the other party claiming that you're wrong, or over-reacting to something. |
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| tourist - 2007-11-09 7:06 PM
and we don't want to have to explain Green Jello or Bruce to our co-workers.
Awww, I'm hurt. Here I was trying to explain all the nice people on the forum to my lady friend, and telling her about how nice the forum mother from Canada was....
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-12 9:39 AM
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| it's been interesting to think about this more and read your points as well, GJ.
i think that you're right in that it's not passive aggressive in the sense of trying to undermine someone or some such. and it's certainly not meant to be hurtful. i guess that the basic social expectation is to not stand up for oneself--I guess bullies aren't used to that.
As for 'shutting down.' i'm very 'nice' to people who are not 'in.' i just dont' share with them. it's honest, it's clear, but it's surface. and for some people, that's the worst. they want/need to be number 1 in the group, number 1 in your life, and to have number 1 value. and when they can't be/get/have that, well, then it's very painful for them.
but, i'm not responsible for reactions. i was being self preserving (in the instances where that occurs), for which i am responsible, and perhaps i could say there are often other, better ways to deal with the situation and my own reactions--but ultimately i didnt' do anything to overtly harm anyone, and if one was harmed, it was by their own reaction.
anyway, things to think about. |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-12 2:21 PM
it's been interesting to think about this more and read your points as well, GJ.
i think that you're right in that it's not passive aggressive in the sense of trying to undermine someone or some such. and it's certainly not meant to be hurtful. i guess that the basic social expectation is to not stand up for oneself--I guess bullies aren't used to that.
I think the social expectation is much more to give in in the name of being harmonious. Most people in our society don't know themselves very well, or what they want, and as a result often don't stand up for their values, because they really don't have any.
I'd also agree that most people are not expecting a yoga teacher to be assertive, and stand up for herself, particularly not a group like you described. Frankly, they sound like a group of thugs who are very used to getting their way through fear and intimidation. It was probably a shock to them to find a yoga teacher that goes against the stereotypical expectations of yoga teachers being wishy-washy.
As for 'shutting down.' i'm very 'nice' to people who are not 'in.' i just dont' share with them. it's honest, it's clear, but it's surface. and for some people, that's the worst. they want/need to be number 1 in the group, number 1 in your life, and to have number 1 value. and when they can't be/get/have that, well, then it's very painful for them.
Okay, I think the word I've had applied to me is "warm". I'm not necessarily warm with people I don't care for, because I don't like them, and I'm not going to fake it.
but, i'm not responsible for reactions. i was being self preserving (in the instances where that occurs), for which i am responsible, and perhaps i could say there are often other, better ways to deal with the situation and my own reactions--but ultimately i didnt' do anything to overtly harm anyone, and if one was harmed, it was by their own reaction.
Agreed, you were in the right.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-12 3:57 PM
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have you ever done this?
