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| IMHO, there is no fixed rule as to what should be done and what should not be done. In my own classes:
I ask students at the beginning of students about what their goals are and what their background is. After that I generally explain the new comer students a structure of my class and that is:
In my class, there is no structure which they have to understand or memorize. I teach whatever I feel like at all different classes. It can include ONLY philosophy for the entire 1.5 hours or it can include only asana for the entire 1.5 hours or any mixture of meditation, chanting only , philosophy, etc. etc. They are not pushed to come to my class. If they do not like the class, they can stop coming. And the fees are what they can afford and wish to pay in the box.
As for my class, they should come for learning what is available, and form their own practice for where they wish to go.
The same applies to my Teacher Training. See the bottom of : http://www.authenticyoga.org/bio.html
My experience in last several years at various settings including Elementary Western School kids, Girl Scoutns, Fitness Gyms and Jewish Centers has been extremely pleasant.
None of them had a problem with my Sanskrit Chanting or Unstructured Classes.
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| jimg -- Truth in advertising, yes, I totally agree.  But I have to ask: have you actually had, or heard of, this "bait and switch" experience in a yoga class? Wow, that's totally wrong. Though I just looked at the website of my teacher's studio, and while meditation is listed as part of all the asana classes, chanting/mantra per se isn't mentioned. Knowing that it's a bhakti studio, the chanting makes perfect sense to me as part of the practice, but I can certainly see how for others, this may not be so apparent, nor even desired, for exactly the reasons you've detailed. I think I'd like to go with my continued belief that when the student is ready, the appropriate teacher will appear for that student. Namaste. |
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| Interesting path this thread has taken. And it's so wonderful that we can all gather here, express our respective opinions, and allow others to do the same without putting forward our own dogma or agenda.
There are some definition issues afoot; Yoga, chanting, asana.... When we refine our language we refine our relationshps and thus refine ourselves. Of course there are agendas. I truly hope it is never to "slip something in" as Jim mentioned. The centering work I was referring to is to place the ego and pelvic agendas in check so that we can teach from the heart. So I hope that the agenda is always in alignment with Yoga.
There is an integrity issue afoot as well. When we teach something that we do not know or when we know something we do not teach there is an internal disharmony of integrity. That radiates outwardly and is, in its radiance, lacking authenticity.
it is up to yoga teachers to teach Yoga. We accept that when we choose. Yoga is a full-bodied practice (though absolutely not a religion) based on the vedas, the sutras, the gita, the upanishads the pradipika et al. Separating yoga from yoga is not respectful to students or chanting/mantra/philosophy/pranayama/pratyahara/santosha/satya. It is what it is. If one's preference is exercise or fitness, that is fine. But when you go to a Yoga class expect yoga. If you don't like yoga then go take Pilates.
It is not to us, as teachers, (as this thread is IN the Yoga Teachers section) to like or dislike this element or that element of Yoga. Yoga is yoga. we are depriving only ourselves when we choose to narrowly view Yoga.
Relative to what we share, whether we Om or not, whether we invocate, whether we recite the Gayatri (minding that the Gaytri is the mother mantra of all yoga and one could make a case that refuting the gayatri is refuting yoga itself) there are two considerations.
The first is "what do I believe and practice as a human being. If a teacher does not hold to the invocation, does not hold to the harmonizing of Om, then it is not appropriate to incorporate it (though it does beg several other questions about that person's practice, acceptance, training, et al).
The second concern is the level of the student. NOT whether they want it or not or are Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Zoroastrian. Students, when being taught, are taught in progression. The calculus of chanting has a prerequsite. Scales precceed composing. The alphabet preceeds creative writing. This is the way of learning, not the way of Yoga. Yoga merely abides by it. A yoga teacher who progresses to mantra is no different than a math teacher who progresses to the quadratic equation. It is not bait and switch. It is growth in learning. Foundations must be developed.
Those student who just want to jump around can go take Awesome Abs, Cardio Sculpt, Step & Pump, Core Energy, Kickboxing, or the like where there is no risk of a 9,000 year-old history, philosophy, or framework.
I welcome anyone to my class for any reason they wish to be there but the teacher does not sacrifice her/his truth for the truth of the student. I teach Yoga as it has been shared with me and that will continue to grow as I continue to study, as will my students. When it is appropriate to teach more, then I will. And that "more" may very well be the Gayatri. Otherwise I could not live in integrity.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-05 3:44 PM
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| There is no right yoga or wrong yoga. There is no right way to do it (other than safely) or right way to think about it. There is a great variety of ideas and practices that are all yoga. Some people are very dogmatic and fundamentalist about their yoga and some people are very free and open about theirs. Some people try to find the essence of yoga in the past, others in the present and still others in the future. Some people see yoga as requiring chastity and others see yoga as tantric sexual practices. For some people yoga is physical exercise and for some people yoga is the rejection of the physical world. For some people yoga is a static truth and for others a constantly changing realization. If yoga is not a religion, then there are no beliefs that one is required to follow. For me yoga is inquiry and the unknown. For others, it is knowing. It is all yoga.
Edited by jimg 2007-11-05 5:20 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| jim - I admit to having feelings about the bait and switch situation and I pondered it for some time. It was that thinking in fact, that led me to chant the invocation in more of my classes rather than fewer. It seems to me to be more honest to be up front right away and let people know this is how we run our classes rather than have them go to a class with one of my co-teachers or arrive a year or so later in Level II and suddenly find themselves facing the prospect of chanting. This way they can make an informed decision right away about whether or not this is the right class for them. I do feel good about the fact that I know the invocation well, understand why we are chanting it and have a fairly reasonable crack at decent Sanskrit pronunciation (I think Neel will back me up on that...) so I am not out there just chanting away stuff I have picked up on a Ram Dass CD that struck my fancy. And I think that counts for something, too. |
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| Yes, I can truely say that SisTourist did sincere practice of the chant she got recorded from me and she sent me a recording to review. And, I can assure that she practiced it numerous times to come to such a good pronunciation. And, she herself can tell others difference she must have found in her physical and mental well being between her starting chanting and after practicing the chanting. Since she has done so, she will definitely a proper person to vote on this.
And, definitely there are many ways a person can chant a particular chant in wrong ways. All the persons chanting a given chant in all ways are NOT correct ways. In chanting and many other yoga practices there are definitely wrong ways of doing them and correct way of doing them. There is definitely a WRONG and RIGHT in Yoga.
Above is my opinion, a strong opinion, a conviction and also my experience after studying and teaching for sufficient time. |
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| Glenda,
If you want to have chanting be a part of your classes, you have (in my opinion) done the right thing. You have been honest with your students in letting them know up front that chanting is part of your class and you have been honest with yourself in that you have spent time learning about chanting.
Namaste,
Jim
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| kulkarnn - 2007-11-05 7:03 PM
And, definitely there are many ways a person can chant a particular chant in wrong ways. All the persons chanting a given chant in all ways are NOT correct ways. In chanting and many other yoga practices there are definitely wrong ways of doing them and correct way of doing them. There is definitely a WRONG and RIGHT in Yoga.
Come on Neel, you are just saying that if someone agrees with you that they are right and that if they don't agree with you that they are wrong. Although there are traditional (including a great variety of traditions) and non-traditional ways of doing things (including chanting) they are not right or wrong. The value judgement of right or wrong is coming from you, it is not inherent in the thing or action itself. I know that you like to see things as either black or white, but reality just is not that way (and I think that you know that). Even the world of matter is not all that absolute.
Namaste,
Jim
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| Dear Jimg:
If you think that way, no problems. I only stated what wanted which is the last sentence in my previous post. That is what I do and am not having any problems with my classes, friends or students or teachers. I can even accept that another person may have a different or even opposite experience. But, I do not see any need to change my opinion, strong opinion, and conviction for that matter.
I do accept your logic that a class should mention what they are going to teach, and not teach a while saying b, as you explained. However, what I state is I teach what I feel is right to my thinking, if that is beneficial to the student, they should come or seek elsewhere. I feel that is fair enough.
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| kulkarnn - 2007-11-06 5:19 AM
However, what I state is I teach what I feel is right to my thinking, if that is beneficial to the student, they should come or seek elsewhere. I feel that is fair enough.
Neel,
It would be dishonest for you to teach what you did not feel was right or feel was not beneficial to the student. I think that good teachers teach from the heart and I think that is what you are describing as what you do. Following your heart is doing what you feel is right. It has nothing to do with RIGHT or WRONG. It does have a lot to do with personal honesty and integrity.
Namaste,
Jim |
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| I'll just pose this and then quickly run back into my hovel to drag heavy objects around with my privates.
(assuming a somewhat standardized intention)
Just as there are crimes that are legislated and crimes that are inherent, there is a similar concept in play with Yoga?
Malum in se vs. malem prohibitum
I would suggest that while anyone may have any stance and do any thing and that is any okay...
There are some things that are variance from one style to another, one lineage to another. AND there are some things that are inherently incorrect (or "wrong"). It is not because I say so or because someone agrees or disagrees with me.
For example, mispronouncing certain words within the Gayatri does not make it a request for illumination but a request for darkness. In the context of yoga (as I understand it) there is no appropriate placement for a request of this sort. That would make a recitation of the mantra (with the improper pronunciation) "wrong" for yoga. Perhaps not wrong for selling records but wrong for illuminating the mind and removing the veil of ignorance.
One may still recite it that way without reproach of any kind from me. But I would not teach it that way and would correct the students that I am charged with instructing in the proper recitation.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-06 8:13 PM
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| purnayoga - 2007-11-06 5:10 PM
For example, mispronouncing certain words within the Gayatri does not make it a request for illumination but a request for darkness. In the context of yoga (as I understand it) there is no appropriate placement for a request of this sort. That would make a recitation of the mantra (with the improper pronunciation) "wrong" for yoga. Perhaps not wrong for selling records but wrong for illuminating the mind and removing the veil of ignorance.
One may still recite it that way without reproach of any kind from me. But I would not teach it that way and would correct the students that I am charged with instructing in the proper recitation.
Let me take a similiar example (which is hundreds instead of thousands of years old): A song by Schubert with words by Goethe. Most people today sing Schubert in "high German". Most Americans sing "high German" with an American accent. Most Americans cannot make the correct German sounds as both the consonants and vowels are slightly different and Americans grow up with different sounds. (American vowels are broader and German vowels are more pure like Italian except for the dipthongs which are more like French). Assuming that one learns to sing "high German" correctly, are you singing the song correctly? Schubert was Viennese and would have spoken an 18th century version of Viennese German, NOT "high German". This difference is about the same as a deep southern American English accent compared to "Queen's English". He would have had a very different understanding of the poem by Goethe than you or I or Goethe. Yes, there would be clues into Schubert's view of the poem in the music, but that is only an interpretation of an interpretation. Your musical intrepretation of Schubert cannot be authentic because you have heard Wagner, Stravinsky, the Beatles, Rock and Roll, and Rap. Your entire experience, your frame of reference, your "weltanschauung", your context is different. What if you pronounce some or all of the words "wrong"? What if you sing different notes? (Some of Schubert's notes were probably changed by copyists and/or editors anyway.) This is only "wrong" within a certain tradition, within a certain context. You cannot be authentic, but you can fit into a general tradition or be "correct" within a certain context. "Proper" or "correct" are personal interpretations within our personal context, whether we are conforming to our interpretation of a time-honored tradition or making it up as we go.
The point of singing the song is to communicate an idea and/or emotion (on a deeper, non-verbal level) as well as to please the ears and soothe or excite the spirit. To me, if you communicate with the song it does not matter whether it is "correct", as this "correctness" is just conformity to a particular tradition and is not music. If you don't communicate, it does not matter how "correct" the performance is as it is dead.
If the mouth is asking for darkness but the heart for illumination, does it matter? If the mouth is "correct" and asking for illumination, but the heart seeking darkness, what happens then? Who are you asking for illumination from? Any power capable of satisfying such a request would be able to understand the intent.
As a yoga teacher, we teach within a certain context. Whether that context is open and free or dogmatic and fundamentalistic, a modern interpretation of something ancient or actually modern, there is only a "right" and "wrong" within that self-generated context. That context could be one of the many traditions or even a lack of tradition but would still be a context. That is as far as "right" and "wrong" go. They are relative and limited only to a particular moment within a particular context.
Please excuse my rambling. |
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| The first sentence seems valid and liked by me. However, the idea of escaping from 'right' and 'wrong' and where the limit of this idea can end is doubtful and scary for me. Also, this idea of 'right' and 'wrong' can be expected to 'honesty' plus 'dishonesty' or 'integrity' plus 'disintegrity', I suppose.
jimg - 2007-11-07 1:06 PM
Any power capable of satisfying such a request would be able to understand the intent.
As a yoga teacher, we teach within a certain context. Whether that context is open and free or dogmatic and fundamentalistic, a modern interpretation of something ancient or actually modern, there is only a "right" and "wrong" within that self-generated context. That context could be one of the many traditions or even a lack of tradition but would still be a context. That is as far as "right" and "wrong" go. They are relative and limited only to a particular moment within a particular context.
Please excuse my rambling.
Edited by kulkarnn 2007-11-07 1:23 PM
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| Neel,
To me, right and wrong are based on the past and are dogmatic and a continuation of the past into the present. This is a closed system that makes growth and evolution difficult, although it can put a damper on some destructive things. On the other hand, honesty and integrity are in the present moment and are both constant and continually changing at the same time. This is transformative!
Namaste,
Jim |
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| Well, there is correctness within a range of correctness. Sing that Schubert by changing all the notes, sing them flat and without attempting an approximation of the language and you get dead WRONG. And what a shame that would be! To a certain extent we are protected by our good intentions, but there comes a dividing line eventually...
But this reminds me of a thing I heard on the radio where young opera singers and musicians have decide that young folk need to hear opera more so they are playing gigs in bars  There are some stuffy old folks who would say that is purely wrong, but I think it is cool |
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| talk about "have you done this?!!!!!"
i had to defend my classroom to the point of violence today! yes, violence.
the story is a simple one. i work at a gym. my class has been at 7:00 (or near then) for the last 6 years. i have a dedicated class, the largest at this gym.
other instructors have come and gone (different disciplines) who wanted class at 7:30 or 6:30 or what have you. i've always moved the class, and the class (students) has always been accommodating.
with this, we have always created 'buffer time' in our class. we do this because we know that class times before us often run over, and we want to make sure we get the full hour of time, and also sometimes we like to go over by 5 or so minutes just because the going is so good! so, i tend to schedule my class 15 minutes after the previous and 15 minutes before the next.
up until this year, i've been included in meetings about scheduling, informed of possible changes, and explained the reasoning for the buffer. Because there are a number of us with specialized classes, a lot of us prefer this 'buffer' system.
but a lot of newbies moved in this year--newly certified folks (various disciplines), new trainers, and the whole thing. even new management. communication has completely broken down, and we typically find out about schedule changes when we show up for class that day and notice that it's changed.
for example, we had moved our class to 6:45 to accommodate a class starting at 8:00. that class ended (the trainer left after only 5 weeks of employment there), but we kept the 6:45 class time. Then, another trainer (new) shows up and put a class in at 6:30 until 7. We showed up for class at 6:45, as usual and as on the schedule, only to discover this class in session. From outside the classroom, i waved to the instructor who stuck his head out and explained that this was the "new abs class" from 6:30-7:00. I said "oh, ok." i wasn't worried, as we could move from 7 to 8.
on that particular day and for some days following, he was getting his legs in the schedule and was running about 5-10 minutes over time, so we were starting between 7:10 and 7:15, and running and hour from there. i encouraged him to try to get into his half hour, and within two more weeks, he had finished by 7 and generally does so regularly.
shortly thereafter, i was teaching from 7-8, not expecting a class after us. but when i arrived, i noticed a sign about krav maga classes starting at 8. i asked the desk folks about it and was informed that these were renters. this isn't unusual--sometimes karate schools and related rent the room for classes and events--and we all strive to respect the time that they are renting the room. jack's class ran late that day (until 7;10), but i ended my class early (with their knowledge) by 7:55 to transition and welcome the krav maga folks. this means that students only got 45 minutes, but jack and i talked and i implored him to be sure to finish just before 7 if possible (say, 7:5 so that we could start by 7:02 or so and finish by 7:56-57 for the krav maga class.
krav maga class has been there for 8 weeks, and they have a decent sized class (5 people and 3 instructors). for the first 7 weeks, i've ended class early so that we could transition easily. the students stated that they were really upset about their class time being cut into, and had made complaints about jack running late and our having to end early.
last week (week 7), i talked to the krav maga instructors and said that when classes run behind, we want to hold an hour class--which might mean cutting into their 'official' time by a few minutes (3-5), and that we hoped that they'd be ok with extending their class (from 8-9 to 8:05-9:05 on those days when we run late). i told them that it wouldn't happen frequently, but sometimes it happens and that our clients (the members of the gym) also deserve the full benefits of their memberships. they seemingly agreed.
well, today, classes got backed up starting with the 4:30 class. the teacher at 4:30 is new, and she wanted to "finish her lesson plan" for the class, and it ran until 5:40. then, the next class ran until 6:40. then, jack did his abs class, but was generous enough to end at 7:05 so that we could get in and settled. i thanked him for shaving 5 minutes off of his class and thanked his students as well.
i then started my class at 7:10. i told the clients that i would run class until 8:05, that we'd have to shave off five minutes to honor the KM students. they were happy to do this, and we got started. it was a great class.
at 7:55, the female KM instructor stuck her head into the classroom saying "are you finished yet?" and i said "no, we need about 10 minutes." she said it rudely, made a lot of noise, and was very disruptive. but, this happens--i could handle that.
then, at 8:00, one of the young, male KM instructors opened the door and said "are you done?" and i said "no, just 5 more minutes" and closed the door. At this point, i chose to stand in front of the door. we were heading toward the savasana and meditation, and i didn't want any more interruptions.
while standing in front of the door, they made fun of us quite loudly and called us names. the students and i could hear, but even this didn't bother us. we know that a lot of folks don't get it, and they don't understand why we're laying on the floor or just sitting quietly.
just after i put my students into savasana and i started the guided meditation (before the silent, seated meditation), the older, male KM instructor pushed the door open into me, and said "YOU'RE FINISHED! GET OUT NOW! THIS IS OUR ROOM!"
and yes, he yelled it.
i leaned back against the door, closing it. i then went straight into cuing the breath to calm the students and myself (they were quite agitated after this), and then i slowly brought us to seated where we chanted Om Shanti (three rounds) for a few moments instead of silent meditation.
At this point, it was 8:03, and then we did namaste, prayer, and were finished. At that point, i opened the door and let them in.
The instructors came in and started yelling at me that i was disrespectful, and then they started to bully the students! they started to pick up their belongings and throw the belongings toward the door, they were yelling at us to get out, that we need to "honor the schedule" and that my behavior (keeping them out) was disrespectful.
I told him that my clients are members of the gyms and paying customers, and that they deserve what they pay for as well as the KM teachers and their students. i also asserted that their disruption of my classroom was rude and disrespectful, and that their intimidation and bullying was completely uncalled for.
at this point, the elder KM instructor stepped close to me to intimidate me, yelling that i was wasting their time by having students 'just lay there!' i stood my ground and firmly stated that "just because you don't know what it means, doesn't mean that it's not valuable, necessary, and important. i expect you to respect my authority over my material and my classroom." i then started swearing at him like a sailor.
he backed away. apparently i had intimidated him. LOL at this point, it's about 8:07 or so.
anyway, my students were livid. at the beginning of the altercation, one of the students went out and started talking with the desk guy. jack (who is also a trainer) was there and he said that we could talk to the manager about it tomorrow. the other 12 students had come out to complain by this point.
we refused to simply leave, and jack kept talking about how we needed to be accommodating. I mentioned that i'd been accomodating when he shoe-horned his class in between mine and beth's, when the krav maga folks started their class, when franko told me--didn't ask or inform but told me--that he was running his class at 9:30 am on fridays and we "had to move" (even though we'd been running that class for 7 years now), when people have asked to run classes at 7:30 or 6:30 or 6:00 on mondays (we used to have class from 5:30 5o 6:30, and then we moved it to 5 because another person wanted something at 6--now they want it at 5:30 and we won't budge on that), and how we've always been kind in our waiting when classes run over, that we simply run our class over, or make up the time at other times as we can.
i asserted that i simply couldn't be more accommodating! it was 5 minutes, and i'd informed them about this.
and even if i hadn't informed them, or asked them about it, is 5 minutes so extreme and important that it warrants interrupting the classroom 3 times, yelling at me and my students, calling us names, bullying us and being generally intimidating while we were striving to quickly get out of the classroom?
At this point, the students and i insisted that the manager be called immediately, as well as the gym owner (nick and phil). jack said "but it's his private time." and i said, 'doesn't matter, he's management and this is a serious management issue! i think he should be called now." the students backed me up with this, insisting that management be called before we would leave.
jack called nick and left a message, then called phil. he left my phone number on the messages, for them to call me ASAP. and, i wrote this email to them:
I am extremely livid with the way my clients and I were treated this evening by the Krav Maga instructors.
Never in my years as a yoga teacher in any facility have my clients and I ever been treated in such a horrible, intimidating, and disrespectful manner. My classroom was interrupted twice at the end of class, and my clients and I were bullied and yelled at as we left the classroom.
Regardless of any circumstances, I think that every client and employee expects to be treated with common courtesy and respect.
The circumstances of this evening are one of those rare events that happens with fitness classes--the previous classes ran a bit over and got backed up. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, common practice is to transition kindly and respectfully, to provide the students with the full benefits of their membership and their expectation for the classes, and to do our best to start quickly and even shave time off of our class to keep close to schedule.
Tonight, my class started at 7:10 (due to the back up) and ended at 8:05--shaving 5 minutes off of my class time. I assumed that the Krav Maga class could accommodate this unusual event--but instead they responded with a great deal of aggression towards me and towards my students--your paying customers!
Even if finishing five minutes late is a serious problem--it certainly doesn't warrant a response as violent, intimidating, rude and disrespectful as this group treated us this evening.
So, I what do I want?
*I want an overt, official apology from them to me and to my students at the end of the next Wednesday night yoga class.
*I want an understanding that on those rare occasions when classes run late--which is something that we all strive to avoid--that the classroom, the students, and my authority in the classroom to end the class will be upheld until we are ready to depart, and that it will be done so respectfully without interruption or rude name-calling outside the classroom while the class is ending (apparently, they did not realize that the room is not sound proof, and I heard their name calling and rude language during the last 3 minutes of my class).
*If the Krav Maga instructors cannot be accommodating and respectful to me and to my students, then I suggest they move their class back to 8:15 or 8:30 pm. My class has dedicated, paying customers who want a fun, peaceful yoga experience without having to deal with the stress of aggressive people bullying them as they leave class.
*I have been very accommodating of the schedule changes over the last year--often without input or advance notice of a change until we show up for class. I would like more communication and the ability to input on whether or not my class can or should be moved. I think that this basic professional courtesy should be extended to all of the teachers and other employees of the gym.
I strongly feel that it is important to emphasize that while the Krav Maga instructors are paying rent, I have a regular class of 8-12 students who have attended this class for many years and who are also paying customers. I do not know which you hold in higher priority, but I would hope that you value your customers as much as I value them. I would hope that you see the seriousness of this issue in regards to the terrible behavior on the part of the Krav Maga instructors and will act accordingly.
I look forward to your timely response.
Thank you,
me
I think that there are times when the warrior spirit is a necessary part of practice. I did my best to be accommodating to them, and I was as calm and respectful as i could be as they repeatedly interrupted my class between 7:55 (five minutes before they officially have the room) and 8:05 when we had all basically exiting the room (i would say class officially ended by 8:03 or so), and i really didn't get upset and angry about it until that man got in my face--and i noticed that the other two instructors had gotten in the faces of my students and their students were tossing our things toward the door!
i think that self defense is sometimes necessary--and that this was madness.
i look forward to how the gym is going to deal with this. it amazes me how grown people can behave so childishly over 5 minutes that could simply be added to the end of their class. |
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| I am dumbfounded. Throwing their belongings out the door?! I don't even know what to say about this other than extending my sympathies that you had to deal with this b.s. and now, sit home and stew about it (as we all would). I can't imagine the gym management not coming through for you. This is horrible!! And during shavasana, no less. |
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| i know, right?
all of the students made phone calls and sent emails as well. they included me on the CC for the email.
at least the gym is sure to have heard about it! |
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| Dear ZB: Please do not waste your valuable time and energy at this place. OM shantiH. |
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| neel:
we've talked about options for moving on.
one option is going to another gym and seeing if we can get classes there. i've started to talk to them and mentioned that my following (of about 20-25 people total) are willing to stop their membership at the current gym and join the new one just to take my yoga classes. some of these students only belong to the gym for the yoga classes.
other options are not as financially viable for the students and myself. with the gym membership, they pay about $.83 per class. i earn $30 for each class. in any given class, i have between 6 and 15 students depending upon day, season, etc. whether i get 6 or 15, i still get $30 and they still pay $.83 cents (roughly--of course, the more you come--if you come to three classes of the four a week, you get this price. those who do four classes pay less!  ).
i thought about starting "dollar classes" at a studio near here, but it doesn't fit my schedule for these students. each student would pay $1 per class. this, of course, gives them a great deal, but my only earning would be between $6 and $15 per class rather than the usual $30.
now, i would say that money doesn't matter--but it does. there's no reason why i shouldn't make a living teaching yoga, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make a bit of money. It's not as if i'm making millions teaching 4 classes a week at this place for $30, 5 classes a week at the Y making $15.15 per class, 1 class a week at another gym for $30, and then whatever i bring in from private lessons, workshops, retreats, etc.
so, it's just not viable to do $1 classes AND it's not viable for the students to pay more than $1 for their classes.
i spoke with a local martial arts studio about their business model--they have monthly memberships for their training--and whether or not our group could be included but only for yoga. . .and so far it's not really viable for the students.
so, the only real option here is to either hope that they make reparations OR that the other gym will allow us to come over to their place.
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| ZB: Thanks for not misunderstanding my sentence. I meant " do not waste time at THAT place". I wrote 'this' place sounding like this forum. Again, I meant " do not waste your energy for that studio".
Yes, I agree. Money matters. But, for money, one should go where money is. I am not a good expert in that. But, I am satsified with what I do. |
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| no worries, neel! i love ya!
as far as an update goes, the situation is being taken care of.
after i left last night, it turns out that the amount of noise that they and we made attracted the attention of the whole gym--and more than just my class complained at the way the KM teachers treated us. So, Nick stopped by the gym after the Krav Maga class and explained to them that classes often run 5-10 minutes late and that we need to be courteous, respectful and accommodating of each other and that they could simply run their class 5-10 minutes over (starting at 8:05 and ending at 9:05).
even so, Phil and Nick both got my email, as well as emails from my clients asserting the same story, the same problem, and the same "demands." today, i went to the gym to meet with Nick, the manager, and he said that Phil, the owner, would be in within the hour, but he was going to inform me of the current situation.
first, both take the complaint seriously, particularly in light of the fact that it spread throughout the whole gym and made multiple members very uncomfortable such that they complained too. he also informed me that while this group is renting from the gym, they staretd their classes 2 months ago and haven't paid their rent yet! So, they already had problems with the people.
this, then, takes us to reparations. when phil gets in, he and nick are going to decide whether or not to kick out the KM group for not paying rent and for this incident. If they do not kick him out, then they will meet all of the "demands" towards them that i put in my email: an apology to the class, respect of the class, the classroom, and my authority, and move their KM class back to 8:15 or 8:30.
so, either way, it looks like it's going to work out in my favor. everyone agrees that their behavior was completely in the wrong, and extreme at that.
no need to move, then. |
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| ZB,
Obviously it is totally your call, your dharma, your situation to handle in whatever way serves you.
My observations are based only on what you've shared. It is clearly a very dramatic event, any way you look at it.
It does not sound like the group exercise program is well run or well maintained at the venue you reference. Even though Group Ex may not be a core offering at the venue a "hands off until there's a huge disturbance" attitude strikes me as care-less. the students may be nice. The management may be nice. The owner may be nice. But nice is only a quality of a human being not of a good employer, manager or facility.
I personally would have no interest in a letter of apology to my class or an in-person apology. It simply was the behavior it was and a forced apology that is mandated from ownership is both hollow and meaningless (to me). I would not want to give the impression to my students that this is warranted for me to be "okay", move on, cope, or be the smiling yogi I am because it is not.
Additionally, on a personal level, I would not make my teaching decisions based on the students. If I did not want to teach there (for whatever reasons) then I would stop teaching there and teach elsewhere. That could be for fiscal reasons, respect reasons, saucha reasons, etcetera.
My students would be both informed of this and welcomed to continue to study with me wherever I moved to. But a coalition would not be needed for me to move on (meaning you don't need to discuss options for moving on). This does not mean I don't care for or about my students. It merely means I operate in an integrity around my teaching separate from them (as I believe that is most heaalthy) and being supported in that teaching is critical to my teaching and my growth and therefore it is critical to the growth of those I teach.
You will, I am certain based on previous chat, find the yoga lesson in this for yourself. Right now it sounds cloudy and convoluted. The waters are murky. So as your forum friend and peer I'd encourage you to seek a greater clarity, setting aside the external references and connecting with the internal one.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-08 12:59 PM
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| every gym, yoga studio, karate studio, etc that i have worked for has been mismanaged in some way. as far as i can tell, it's the nature of the beast of this kind of business. if i'm going to work for others as an employee, then i accept that there will be a certain measure of mismanagement.
for the most part, it's a quirk of the business that i can handle. when i need to, i assert what the problems are, i negotiate with management about different issues, and i make sure that the needs of the student and the teacher (that's me) get met.
but, this chronic mismanagement is, in part, why i am moving toward being more independent overall and working less as an employee. my friday night class, for example, is a rental agreement with a studio. it's why i have been doing the retreat, workshops, and teacher training. All of these are completely independent of anyone, anywhere. I simply rent a facility, hold a session, and whomever comes, comes. I've been blessed to make profit each time. it's not enough to support me yet--but in time it may be.
as for the issue of making decisions based on my students, while i agree that at a certain level, a measure of professional/business distance is required, i also highly value my students and recognize the importance of our relationship. i also recognize the issues of financial balance.
many of these clients are my "core group" and they also come to workshops, retreat, etc. they are a great gift to me, and i want to offer my best to them. because of the nature of our *healthy* (TYVM) relationship, i think it is important to keep them informed of my thought processes and needs as well as to hear their needs in order to come to something that is workable for both of us.
If i absolutely had to leave this place, i would. in fact, i considered it last night and made contact with a couple of folks about renting their space during the regular class times. i'm still considering it, but i think that the gym will be improving.
also, i don't like empty apologies, nor do i accept them. but if i don't get some demonstration or an opportunity to air my grievance to that person directly, for that person to at least "hear" or "see" my perspective, then that is problematic to me.
my modus apparandi has long been to simply shrug it off and say "that person is crazy." and what happens is that "that person" generally accuses me of being unethical, problematic, etc, and then i'm the one who ends up "in trouble" one way or another. Part of my yoga lesson recently is learning to stand up for myself.
so, it's important that if the person comes to apologize, that he hear what i have to say, and from that, he'll either apologize sincerely, or i'll simply not accept a false apology. |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-08 1:27 PM
Part of my yoga lesson recently is learning to stand up for myself.
Interesting. One of the qualities that I've admired in you is your ability to stand up for yourself. I'm surprised to hear you say that you're working on it, since you seem to do a better job than a lot of people I know.
EDIT: Further it would appear that your ability to stand up for yourself is the reason why a number of the people at this gym have rallied around you when this crisis occurred.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-08 2:51 PM
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have you ever done this?
