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| i would like to hear from those with a dedicated ashtanga yoga practice:
the reasoning behind the the placement of headstand following shoulderstand in ashtanga yoga. why this order?
Edited by monpetitvulcan 2008-01-11 3:02 AM
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| 1. The reason for this order is NOT documented in the Ashtanga Yoga Style Exercise original resources.
2. One reason is "this order exists without any particular reason" and the order is part of this particular Yoga Exercise style. For example, in my style, I purposefully change the order (of course, not haphazardly!) so that my TTs understand that 'there can be different orders'.
3. Other reasons can be guessed, either by intellectual analysis (bad!) or by dedicated practice (as you correctly stated!). Shoulderstand is easier for average person to conceive (NOT do. In my opinion, in doing, Headstand is easier than Shoulderstand.) mentally than the Headstand.
Om ShantiH.
monpetitvulcan - 2008-01-11 2:56 AM
i would like to hear from those with a dedicated ashtanga yoga practice:
the reasoning behind the the placement of headstand following shoulderstand in ashtanga yoga. why this order? |
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Expert Yogi
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| Hi kate - Neel has given you a great answer! I will add another perspective for you. Using Iyengar logic, we do shoulder stand after headstand, as SS is quieting for the brain and nervous system, while HS is energizing and stimulating. Using this logic, perhaps the intention is to be able to finish the practice in an energized state. With any luck, one of our Ashtangis will come along and add a more informed Ashtanga perspective to this question  |
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| Dear SisTourist. While your point is well taken, the Ashtanga Exercise Style does not use the logic of enerzing and quietening the way you have stated.
With all due respects to those in Ashtanga Exercise, who have made a great difference in lives of people, Ashtanga Style exercise is more traditional routine that is NOT suited for individual needs in many a ways. And, many who do that exercise are NOT prequalified for it.
Edited by kulkarnn 2008-01-11 10:16 AM
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| while studying astanga with beryl, she made reference to what tourist mentions--about the idea of balancing out energies.
but she also mentioned a lot of what neel said too--which is that it's really about what pattabi jois experienced in his practice and then offered to and experienced in his students (without a lot of reasons expressed verbally), and even beyond that, that it's no problem to change the sequence away form the original to meet the needs of the students.
i do agree with neel that, like bikram and other 'set sequences' it doens't necessarily mean that it meets the students needs or that the students are "prequalified" or "prepared" for that practice.
i think that, taught traditionally in the slow way rather than in the "americanized" way that we do it here, it would prequalify and prepare students better AND one would be able to meet their needs (even though still using a sequence). but, it's not often practiced that way here.
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| There is no right or wrong sequencing! There is only what works for you now and will not cause injury now or later. The world is full of "experts" who will tell you what to do. Unfortunately, they don't agree. Become knowledgeable, use the "experts" as resourses, but find out for yourself.
You probably need to start with questioning whether you should be doing shoulderstand and/or headstand in the first place and have a really clear idea about why you want to do them. (Not based on what someone else said, but based on your own experience.) You then need to really experience your mind/body/energy while doing them and determine if and when they are something you want to continue and why. After this, you will want to try them in different orders to understand what difference this sequencing makes. (How is it different while in the pose, one hour after, several hours later in the day etc.) You may decide not to do them at all, do them in one order or the other, or mix it up as to your daily objectives with that particular practice.
Yoga is about discovering (which is infinite), not about "knowing" (which is dead and static). |
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| I merely have something to add to the very sound replies already offered.
When the student does Sarvangasana it tends to create opening in the neck. By "opening" I am referring to release, length, and range of motion. I am purposefully not going into great anatomical detail. And that is because I am more of a believer in Applied Anatomy than I am in the perspective of an anatomist.
In Purna Yoga (which I realize has nothing to do with the question here other than it being my ground from which to share) after opening in those muscles we do not bear weight on the head. Since Sirsasana bears weight on the head (and that is a relative statement as some practices and some practitioners do more/less bearing than others) we do Sirsasana before Sarvangasana (when they are both done in one practice).
I share this with you not as an expert but as a tube or conduit. And in that sharing I have no expectation that you'd rush out and "do as I say" nor do I expect you'd do anything that felt it was "against your grain". You may, of course do sarvangasana on the tarmac at JFK while balancing a HumVee on your toe mounds. It is purely up to you. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Where are all of our Ashtangis to answer this? There must be a few out there somewhere....?? |
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| purnayoga - 2008-01-11 1:40 AM
You may, of course do sarvangasana on the tarmac at JFK while balancing a HumVee on your toe mounds. It is purely up to you.
purnayoga,
Do you use the ball of the foot or just the toe mounds? Which poses do you do immediately before and after?
Thanks,
jimg |
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| As I do not teach in that style Jim, I simply could not say. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Oh , you silly boys!  |
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| It seems like Ashtanga is very popular in the U.S. (at least where I have lived, in Western MA and Northern Vermont), where you can't throw a dead cat without hitting a yoga teacher or student. Any ideas as to why this is? I have guessed that it's partly because it seems like a very vigorous form of yoga and there are many people out there who look to yoga primarily as a form of "exercise".
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| lily - I agree. |
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| i was actually throwing cats the other day, and hit yoga teachers with three out of four of the feline missiles...
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| We're universally misinfomred that doing more is "better" for us - better for our retirement, our wellbeing, our self-esteem, etcetera. And so we constantly crave stimulation to the point of being addicted to over-stimulation.
And just as you become used to the paint fumes in your home when you are painting the walls, so too do you become tolerant of the level of stimuli. Thus it takes an exponentially increasing amount of it for you to FEEL anything at all.
Thus the creation of the word "bored". People are bored. Or they've bamboozled themselves into believing they are bored (when nothing is going on and they are not feeling anything externally referenced). So the more actice the activity, the more doing it is, the more consuming, the more engaging it is perceived.
lilybart - 2008-01-14 5:03 AM
It seems like Ashtanga is very popular in the U.S. (at least where I have lived, in Western MA and Northern Vermont), where you can't throw a dead cat without hitting a yoga teacher or student. Any ideas as to why this is? I have guessed that it's partly because it seems like a very vigorous form of yoga and there are many people out there who look to yoga primarily as a form of "exercise".
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| Personally I find it restful done where it is in the Ashtanga primary practice. Both restful and recharging. Although it seemed odd to me at first, since both Mr. Iyengar & S. Sivananda put it before shoulderstand. But I can't claim to be an expert in Ashtanga. I am a beginner in Ashtanga. I have heard the theory that Ashtanga, Iyengar, & ViniYoga are all a certain slant on the Krishnamacharya routine because of different needs on the part of the original student who then became the guru, & because of different ways Krishnamacharya presented the work due to his audience. (For instance, the ViniYoga is softer & easier because at that time Krishnamacharya needed to work with the general public, rather than elete young athletic practitioners.) |
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| Thank you for stating this.
purnayoga - 2008-01-14 1:45 PM
We're universally misinfomred that doing more is "better" for us - better for our retirement, our wellbeing, our self-esteem, etcetera. And so we constantly crave stimulation to the point of being addicted to over-stimulation.
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| You are welcome Neel. I'm merely delighted you read them. And thank YOU for all your contributions to the board over the past couple of years Neel.
Namaste |
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Location: London, England | lilybart - 2008-01-14 1:03 PM
It seems like Ashtanga is very popular in the U.S. (at least where I have lived, in Western MA and Northern Vermont), where you can't throw a dead cat without hitting a yoga teacher or student. Any ideas as to why this is? I have guessed that it's partly because it seems like a very vigorous form of yoga and there are many people out there who look to yoga primarily as a form of "exercise".
Hi Lily,
When I first started practicing Astanga yoga about 15 years ago or so, in England, there were no teachers whatsoever. I think I may have been one of the first natives to start teaching. But then the celebrities started mouthing off about it and the general population joined in-like lemmings really  Except that apparently lemming don't actually jump over cliffs, so that's kind of insulting to lemmings really
Incidentally, Astanga yoga isn't that vigorous-you probably don't burn many more calories than going for a brisk walk. It is only difficult because of the postures and movements which require a combination of 'flexibility' and coordination to overcome. If someone can pick out something 'vigorous' in astanga yoga, I'll go to youtube and find something that is truly vigorous in about ten seconds flat
Nick
Edited by Nick 2008-01-15 3:39 AM
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| Thanks for this statements, especially when coming from a healthcare professional. And, to add
===> The success of Ashtanga Style exercise occurs better when one is prequalified for such difficulty. Otherwise, it creates unwarranted problems. In that case, one should seek other type of exercise or complement Ashtanga with other type.
===> It is foolish to burn calories while continuing to take too many in. It is better to reduce taking in, if one wants to burn them.
Nick - 2008-01-15 3:34 AM
Incidentally, Astanga yoga isn't that vigorous-you probably don't burn many more calories than going for a brisk walk. It is only difficult because of the postures and movements which require a combination of 'flexibility' and coordination to overcome.
Nick |
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| kulkarnn - 2008-01-11 10:14 AM
With all due respects to those in Ashtanga Exercise, who have made a great difference in lives of people, Ashtanga Style exercise is more traditional routine that is NOT suited for individual needs in many a ways. And, many who do that exercise are NOT prequalified for it.
I find it ironic that here in America where being an individual is valued so many people choose a physical form of yoga that is not individualized at all.
The rigid structure does not allow for the time of day, physical condition, what someone has done before or what they will be doing after (does anyone sleep well after an evening ashtanga class?)
Vick |
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| Very good point dear Vick. Actually, in the name of Individual Freedom, which is available to them (due to all being allowed in any Ashtanga Class!), they choose the one which they are not qualified. In this process they get strained and stressed. This is also seen as follows:
- in the name for Individual Freedom, expert in sports or acting, who are not otherwise mature, choose to go for million dollar contracts or prizes
- in the name of Individual Freedom, the above average but NON exceptional students, choose to go for Gifted and Talented programs in the schools, and work day and night to keep up
- In the name of Individual Freedom, averagely educated people work day and night to make a lot of salary (whcih highly educated make in normal working hours), and purchase high mortgage homes in which they do not live.
ETC.
victw - 2008-01-15 7:35 PM
kulkarnn - 2008-01-11 10:14 AM
With all due respects to those in Ashtanga Exercise, who have made a great difference in lives of people, Ashtanga Style exercise is more traditional routine that is NOT suited for individual needs in many a ways. And, many who do that exercise are NOT prequalified for it.
I find it ironic that here in America where being an individual is valued so many people choose a physical form of yoga that is not individualized at all.
The rigid structure does not allow for the time of day, physical condition, what someone has done before or what they will be doing after (does anyone sleep well after an evening ashtanga class? )
Vick |
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| Hi Neel, I have to wonder how things got so twisted, do you think human nature causes us to torment ourselves or can I blame society? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Shelly - I am beginning to believe that it is human nature to go to extremes. Look at how extremely polarized politics is around the world, the way all religions have sects and groups that adhere to wildly extreme disciplines or ideas, sports fans who go berserk about "their" team (I heard there was a riot at a TENNIS match somewhere recently!) etc. Perhaps this is a leftover from primordial survival mechanisms? Practicing a middle path seems to be difficult for us. That's my current theory, anyway...  |
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| Dear Sister Shelly: Actually, Individual Freedom is NOT possible. Individual Freedom is possible only in Spiritual Pursuits. In all other pursuits (and even in Spiritual Pursuit to some extent), a human being is dependent on the outside. Yes, mentally one can isolate to feel happy. But, one is actually dependent on the outside for physical and mental survival.
However, what I meant by Individual freedom in the above is a WRONG FREEDOM, that is allowed. For example, one is actually not a gifted and talented, but is allowed to go to the gt program by workind day and night to keep up with others. I am not stating that such a thing should not happen. What I am stating is that a person has to overwork in such a case, and therefore, shall have other consequences.
Actually, even in Spiritual Practice, at times, a person overworks as a part of Tapas. But, such a tapas has meaning when one has internalized the tapas without expecting material things from the society.
tiivrasanvegaanaam asannaH... Patanjali Chapter 1.
As for Sister Tourist Arguement about Religions having sects, I feel that is not extreme. The sects are required depending on differences. The problem comes when one forces one's own sect on others.
bstqltmkr - 2008-01-17 8:38 AM
Hi Neel, I have to wonder how things got so twisted, do you think human nature causes us to torment ourselves or can I blame society? |
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why sirsasana after sarvangasana ?
