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 Janu B and trying too hardModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
iandicker |
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| I've started a new thread because it's kind of another subject and the window had become impossibly wide to read properly. Thanks for all the advice Nick and I'm trying to put it into my practice. The problem I have with the advice re: pulling in janu b to engage the pelvic floor muscles is that I've been trying in the last few weeks to back off from working too hard in my practice, mainly because I've been tensing my shoulders way too much and also because I seem to be able to get deeper in to a pose if I'm a bit softer. Is there a happy medium between pulling hard and sitting down on my heel in this pose do you think? Also, did you mean to post a link to a pic of female pelvic floor muscles or was it all a horrible mistake?  Ian | |||
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| Nick |
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    Location: London, England | Hi Ian, Ha!  No, not really a mistake, but I can see that it might not be thought appropiate. To an anatomist, the male and female pelvic floor have the same function-so you will have muscles distinct to the female like pubovaginalis, but in any case, it's wise, I think not to concentrate on the differences, but to look at the similiarities. In both the male and female, a muscle called pubococcygeus dwarfs the other PF muscles, and is the only one that most yoga teachers and students will need be concerned with. I prefer not to try to encourage the contraction of other PF muscles, which may have specific functions for holding the organs inside the pelvis such as the rectum and so forth. You can set up some nasty disorders and dysfunctions by learning to squeeze the muscles around the urthra, for example, so I'll never give instructions to contract the pelvic floor as if you were trying to stop the flow of urine. "I've been trying in the last few weeks to back off from working too hard in my practice, mainly because I've been tensing my shoulders way too much and also because I seem to be able to get deeper in to a pose if I'm a bit softer." Yes, this is a tricky one to answer-I certainly wouldn't want to give advice which ends up tensing your shoulders. I'm presuming that by tense shoulders, you mean that the shoulder blades (scapulae) themselves are elevating, and that the muscles above the scapula, upper trapezius and perhaps levator scapulae, are contracting-this is what most people mean when the say they have tight shoulders-correct me if I've got it wrong. But suppose you set up your posture so that when you pull hard, it is the muscles that are antagonistic to the two mentioned above which contract? Namely, the latissimus dorsi and the lower trapezius. Even as the upper trapezius elevates, protracts, and laterally rotates the shoulder blade, the latissimus will depress, retract, and medially rotate the shoulder blade. This is basically bringing the shoulder blade to a position from which we have the greatest range of motion in the shoulder, and which encourages better positioning of the thoracic spine. The concept of reciprocal inhibition is useful in demonstrating the advantages of taking this approach. RI states that for a joint to move, the muscles on one side of the joint contract, and the muscles that are antagonistic to that muscles are sent messages to 'relax,' i.e. the tone of the muscle is damped by recieving less neural input. So, by contracting latissimus, you set up a process whereby those tight shoulder muscles are re-set-yours may be too tight from lugging that camera around, for others, it can be holding a phone with your shoulder, carrying a bag, etc. Therefore, it may be that relaxing into a pose like janu B may actually be perpetuating the tight muscles-if you relax on to your heel, the pelvis is further away from the straight-leg foot, so something has to make up for this increased length-for most people, it's easiest to simply elevate the shoulder blade-so the upper traps are then being told to keep the shoulder blade elevated-not a good postural habit  You are also then going to relax latissimus by reciprocal inhibition. This is also a postural disaster. When you say you that when you relax in to a pose and you go deeper, I think what we have to do is play with the tension and inhibition of our skeletal muscles, so that the correct muscle is used at the correct moment, and with enough force, to move us towards better posture. But by fully relaxing, we are not striving for better posture-strictly speaking, in any case, if you were to fully relax in janu B you would fall off your leg-something must be tight in order to keep you in position-in many cases, the upper traps become the postural shoulder muscles, they become dominant in holding the shoulder position. It may also be that by 'relaxing, the muscles no longer protect the joints they cross-now it's up to the joint suraces and ligaments, which is asking for trouble-best keep the muscles active, so they start to act as ligaments ('extensible ligaments' is something which was drilled into me)which can adapt to postural variation and protect the other structures around the joint. Don't hang off your ligaments! Pull with your muscles! Muscles respond this better postural drive by having better function, ligaments respond to lack of muscular support by becoming useless. I'm going in to this in some detail because It happened to me-it's an attractive route, because it gives a quick fix to the problem of being too tight in postures-relax, and the postures don't hurt any more, and you can get 'deeper' in to them-a quick solution to what should be a lifetime of endevour. Sounds like I'm telling you off, sorry about that-all these observations are based on other people, not you, and may not be applicable. Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick, All good stuff as usual though may take a while to get my brain around exactly which muscles to relax and which to contract. I did read something to this effect in Ashtanga Yoga by Gregor Maele, how you use one set of muscles to get into the pose (eg forward bend) and another set to get deeper, whilst relaxing the ones you used to enter the asana. It's all a question of knowing how this feels I suppose and it takes so long to be any good at yoga! Ian | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | ian****er - 2008-03-02 6:33 PM Nick, All good stuff as usual though may take a while to get my brain around exactly which muscles to relax and which to contract. I did read something to this effect in Ashtanga Yoga by Gregor Maele, how you use one set of muscles to get into the pose (eg forward bend) and another set to get deeper, whilst relaxing the ones you used to enter the asana. It's all a question of knowing how this feels I suppose and it takes so long to be any good at yoga! Ian Hi Ian, A suggestion-rather than trying to get your head around the muscles to contract, try to head for creating the correct movement so that the right muscles contract, so that the right muscles 'relax.' This is the the way we work-the brain contains 'maps' for movement, rather than specifying 'muscle A will contract, producing a force of 50 newtons.' In order to create this, keep on thinking about the neutral spine, which then helps us to devise postures which are easy on the lumbar spine, but challenging for hip, thoracic spine, and shoulders, both in mobility and function. Does the posture challenge the flexion or extension of the lumbar spine, or does it challenge the flexion or extension of the hip joints? This simple question answers a lot of the questions surrounding a healthy yoga practice. And like you say, it's time-the destroyer of worlds, to use a quote, which is of the essence-I can promise you, in twenty years, if we both practice, we will have a completely fresh perspective-I hope we not mature like a fine cheese Nick | ||
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| iandicker |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian, Thanks for that-interesting little article. If I might make a criticism of it , though-she tals about the PF muscles contracting in isolation of the surrounding muscles-keeping the gluteals relaxed and so forth. This is very typical of yoga thought, and also of med students who learn the Kegel exercises and look no further. Even though it's been proven that Kegel exercises are often highly ineffective. Having said that, she also points out the pelvic floor contracts at the same time as related muscle groups. I try to use this in my practice, so that when my pelvic floor tightens, or relaxes, surrounding muscles, or even far-away muscles, also contract. In this way I seek to integrate the function of the pelvic floor with the actions of my body-then the pelvic floor can be said to have achieved a higher function. I think Take care, Nick | ||
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