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 The ego as story teller?Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Meditation -> General Meditation | Message format |
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| I was wondering if anyone has had success in meditation by recognizing that the ego is an inner story teller, and constantly tells you stories of your past and future when you try to meditate? I have found it useful to recognise that intruding thoughts during mediation are just the ego trying to engage the observer part of me in a conversation, and if you just label thoughts as being a "story" then they tend to quieten down faster. Anyone else use a similar technique? | |||
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| Steve Hydonus |
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| i like your analogy it is worth a try anything to calm the restless mind. | |||
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| lmt50 |
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| That is a good point of view. When I first started meditating, as a thought would intrude, I would mentally say that I would think about that later or that I would focus on that later. Then I would let it pass by. So maybe I was pacifying my ego in order to meditate. Makes sense. | |||
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| The Calling |
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| so far what i have found is that my mind/ego doesnt want to stop thinking and will go over past events or possible scenarios and other stuff like that, but thinking about all of this isn't getting me to the mental state i want to be in, so i acknowledge the thoughts and put them in a mental bubble and let them drift away knowing that going over these thoughts will not benefit me Then i can keep my focus and concentration onto one line of thinking (Generally i start with trying to understand why I do certain things, or just question my ways of thinking) and eventually i get to a point where thoughts will start to arise and before i turn them into a story, like you said, i just let them go I try to think like this as often as possible because it keeps me more aware, happier (for example, i question myself a lot and will put myself down for past mistakes or something dumb like that) and it just feels good to soak it all in and not feel trapped by my thoughts or feelings hope that helps | |||
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| Hi Steve, The ego and memories are part of you and will remain as long as you are alive. (They are necessary for planning and survival.) The problem is not that they exist, but that they are often running the show. I like your idea of viewing them as story tellers. One technique that I use in meditation is to view thoughts like bubbles in a glass of champagne. The bubbles appear out of nowhere, travel to the top and disappear again. This technique makes it easier for me to neither repress thoughts nor hold on to them. Namaste, Jim | |||
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| Ram |
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| When you are an observer you go into the witness state. (state of higher consciousness). This is the state that all realized beings live in. As you are probably aware your mind wonders and you again are entrapured in your mind. Meditation is a practise of living in that state all the time. That is why the more you mediate the more you will experience this great state. Meditation teaches meditation. It's a beautiful practise that I have being doing for 14 years. To say it has changed my waking state would be the ultimate understatment. I like what a great being said. If you want to experience more love and less anxiety.....Meditate!! | |||
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| Shakuhachi |
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Member Posts: 28  | Ram - 2008-08-03 5:57 PM When you are an observer you go into the witness state. (state of higher consciousness). This is the state that all realized beings live in. As you are probably aware your mind wonders and you again are entrapured in your mind. Meditation is a practise of living in that state all the time. That is why the more you mediate the more you will experience this great state. Meditation teaches meditation. It's a beautiful practise that I have being doing for 14 years. To say it has changed my waking state would be the ultimate understatment. I like what a great being said. If you want to experience more love and less anxiety.....Meditate!! Still, what sometimes puzzles me is just how bogged down we (I) tend to be in the mind. When I meditate I am much more likely to experience a void or drift into sleep than to experience the truth of my nature in light, expanded consciousness and bliss. Even as the thoughts begin to subside and I, as witness, experience an awareness of the moment without the intrusion of egoistic thoughts, there is nothing else going on. I have recently come to appreciate that the ego does not diminiish or sleep in meditation. Rather, it simply becomes silent and my awareness espands beyond it while staying centered in it. But awareness of what? After the personal psychological stuff settles down it is simply an awareness of being connected to all things, but nothing else really. Quite a slow process this enlightenment. I cetainly think that too few of us appreciate the importance of our waking state (ego activity) and the role it plays in our enlightenment. That is why all spiritual traditions, including yoga, begin with cultivation there (i.e., yamas and niyamas). | ||
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| Ram |
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Shakuhachi - 2008-08-02 12:49 PM Still, what sometimes puzzles me is just how bogged down we (I) tend to be in the mind. When I meditate I am much more likely to experience a void or drift into sleep than to experience the truth of my nature in light, expanded consciousness and bliss. Even as the thoughts begin to subside and I, as witness, experience an awareness of the moment without the intrusion of egoistic thoughts, there is nothing else going on. I have recently come to appreciate that the ego does not diminiish or sleep in meditation. Rather, it simply becomes silent and my awareness espands beyond it while staying centered in it. But awareness of what? After the personal psychological stuff settles down it is simply an awareness of being connected to all things, but nothing else really. Quite a slow process this enlightenment. I cetainly think that too few of us appreciate the importance of our waking state (ego activity) and the role it plays in our enlightenment. That is why all spiritual traditions, including yoga, begin with cultivation there (i.e., yamas and niyamas). Why are you suprised to be "bogged down" in the mind? You have being living in this realm for at least entirely this lifetime. Your switching gears and understand the mind and ego will rebel. You talk about going into a "void". It sounds like your moving into this state of consciousness. Sometimes you fall asleep. But you might be falling into a state called turuya (spelling might be wrong). Which is a state beyond sleep. Remember it's your mind that is judging your meditation. My understanding is the mind can conceptualize only a fraction of what your meditation experience. The ego and the mind are the only things that prevent you from experiencing your true self. IT's the mud on the windshield. I think most people on the path fully recognize the importance of the ego and the mind. And why wouldnt enlightenment take time? Nothing that worthy should come easy. | |||
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Shakuhachi - 2008-08-02 9:49 AM When I meditate I am much more likely to experience a void or drift into sleep than to experience the truth of my nature in light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you have already decided that "light, expanded consciousness and bliss" are your true nature, you are not seeking your true nature but rather light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you already know your true nature, why are you seeking it? If you don't know your true nature, you need to find it through self discovery of what actually is instead of what you would like to find. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Thank you thank you thank you. Ram - 2008-08-01 6:57 PM Meditation teaches meditation. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Thank you thank you thank you. However, Darling Ram: Some of the statements that you made are only for a very advanced student of meditation and can create complex confusion for an average student. So, be careful while advising others. It is not a uniform instruction or knowledge to be spread equally amongst all students. Ram - 2008-08-04 1:30 PM My understanding is the mind can conceptualize only a fraction of what your meditation experience. The ego and the mind are the only things that prevent you from experiencing your true self. IT's the mud on the windshield. I think most people on the path fully recognize the importance of the ego and the mind. And why wouldnt enlightenment take time? Nothing that worthy should come easy. | |||
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| Ram: "My understanding is the mind can conceptualize only a fraction of what your meditation experience." Isn't this true of all experiences, all realities? Isn't this the point of meditation: to experience that which is much greater than the ability of the mind to conceptualize, to go beyond the words/symbols/concepts in your head? Edited by jimg 2008-08-04 3:46 PM | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| I agree and disagree (later being more true) with jimg, based on what each term in his message means. When I heard that Frappuchino Coffee in the Starbucks shall taste fantastic in the hot Summer, instead of ordinary hot coffee, I first formed an understanding of it in my mind. Then, I went to the Starbucks, and ordered an actual Frappuchino with this understanding in my mind. Then, I actually drank the F, sip by sip, and found that my previous understanding, which I had not experienced, was actually true and I now tell others about F. To say that my having the previous understanding of F in mind, does not lead to the actual experience of F, does not make sense to me. however, I can accept that when I drink the F, I may not feel as great as previously understood, or I might actually feel better than what I thought. The statement that Yoga is only a process and has no fixed attainment is possible as one particular person's view and that is fine with me. But, if that view is taken by others, it amounts to the same as experiencing Frappichino in another way. jimg - 2008-08-04 2:38 PM Shakuhachi - 2008-08-02 9:49 AM When I meditate I am much more likely to experience a void or drift into sleep than to experience the truth of my nature in light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you have already decided that "light, expanded consciousness and bliss" are your true nature, you are not seeking your true nature but rather light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you already know your true nature, why are you seeking it? If you don't know your true nature, you need to find it through self discovery of what actually is instead of what you would like to find. | |||
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kulkarnn - 2008-08-04 12:41 PM When I heard that Frappuchino Coffee in the Starbucks shall taste fantastic in the hot Summer, instead of ordinary hot coffee, I first formed an understanding of it in my mind. Then, I went to the Starbucks, and ordered an actual Frappuchino with this understanding in my mind. Then, I actually drank the F, sip by sip, and found that my previous understanding, which I had not experienced, was actually true and I now tell others about F. To say that my having the previous understanding of F in mind, does not lead to the actual experience of F, does not make sense to me. however, I can accept that when I drink the F, I may not feel as great as previously understood, or I might actually feel better than what I thought. Neel, From your eloquent description of Frappuchino, I may myself seek it out and try it. To seek it out I must first know where to find it (thanks for the Starbucks tip). If I try to follow the same path that you took, I will probably get lost because I am starting from a different point and at a different time. So, your description can intice me to seek Frappuchino and your directions may help, but I must still find Frappuchino and I must still have the capacity to fully experience Frappuchino once I find it. A potential problem with this approach is that since your description of Frappuchino and Frappuchino itself are two different things, I can easily see a latte and think that it is Frappuchino (remember that I have never experienced Frappuchino) and ignore the actual Frappuchino that is sold by the same store. I am of the opinion that everyone experiences Frappuchino in their own unique way. I am also of the opinion that we can use all the help that we can get. Yours, Jim PS How do you describe love to someone who has never experienced love? Will your description help them find it? Isn't it easier to explain the obstacles to love so they can remove them and therefore be ready for it when it naturally happens? | |||
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| Ram |
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jimg - 2008-08-04 3:40 PM Isn't this true of all experiences, all realities? Isn't this the point of meditation: to experience that which is much greater than the ability of the mind to conceptualize, to go beyond the words/symbols/concepts in your head? You must be missing my point. I was pointing out that you shouldnt judge your meditations. The mind really is not capable of fully comprehending what took place. Your above statement is very true. To add to it: the purpose of meditation is to discover your true self. The mind and ego are merely masking it. Edited by Ram 2008-08-04 4:56 PM | |||
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| Ram |
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kulkarnn - 2008-08-04 3:33 PM Thank you thank you thank you. However, Darling Ram: Some of the statements that you made are only for a very advanced student of meditation and can create complex confusion for an average student. So, be careful while advising others. It is not a uniform instruction or knowledge to be spread equally amongst all students. 2008-08-04 1:30 PM Ram - QUOTE] Your right Neel. I dont think at times I consider people's understanding and what level they are at. | |||
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| Ram |
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jimg - 2008-08-04 2:38 PM Shakuhachi - 2008-08-02 9:49 AM When I meditate I am much more likely to experience a void or drift into sleep than to experience the truth of my nature in light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you have already decided that "light, expanded consciousness and bliss" are your true nature, you are not seeking your true nature but rather light, expanded consciousness and bliss. If you already know your true nature, why are you seeking it? If you don't know your true nature, you need to find it through self discovery of what actually is instead of what you would like to find. You have a tendency to overanalyze and complicate very simple statements. You might have a very active mind I dont know. Great beings have told us our true state is light, bliss and consciousness. As human beings with limited understanding we need some motivation to do something. They are telling us we can experience all of this if we take the time to meditate. The words "true nature" are very similar to bliss and consciousness.So your arguement can be reversed and turned against you. Remember understanding something intellectually (where I think your stuck at) and actually experiencing it as who you are is two entirely different perspectives. Edited by Ram 2008-08-04 5:01 PM | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Dear jimg: Please read my post again if necessary. Yes, since you are starting from a different point to reach the F, your path shall be different from mine. Unless, you first come to me, and then follow my path. But, in the later case, your path shall match the mine. For example, if you join Bikram class, you shall be doing the Yoga in Hot Room with temperature already set by the studio. Next, even if you started with different point and on a different path, as long as your action is inspired and targetted towards F, you shall reach the same F. If your action is targetted with the fact that Neel told me about F, but I am now going to start some how on any route that comes to my mind, and go on observing my path (or true nature), then you shall reach many interesting places and say possibly that F does not exist at all. Whereas I enjoyed F myself and I am sure about its existence. Next, if you go to Starbucks and do not ask for F, but make that judgement by looking at cookies, you shall possibly get something other than F, and may also think that was F, if you do not have enough background. Therefore, one who wants to reach F, has several options such as: a) Trust in Neel that F is there and it is found in the Starbucks. Also, possibly trust in Neel about the addresses of STarbucks. Then, actually go to Starbucks without worrying whether you are going there, using the route given. Then on getting to Starbucks, ask for F and not make any imaginations. b) Get inspired by Neel's F statement. Then, go outside your home and start roaming, observing all that comes on the way, and one day, accidentally bump into Starbucks. Then remembering that Neel mentioned about Starbucks. Later, again go on roaming within the Starbucks itself, and observe whatever comes to sight and go on tasting it. Later, one day accidentally come across F, and then remember that Neel told me that F shall taste this way. Hurray, it actually does. c) Other combinations of a and b. As Ram correctly pointed out, there have been people who actually know Starbucks, and F both. They tell that if you go to Starbucks and drink F, you shall get such and such enjoyment. Those who have been to Starbucks, many a times, in many ways, also know different paths to get there and they can easily guide those who wish to enjoy F. Of course, the ones who want to choose their own paths, are free to do so. And, that is what exactly happens. But, if one has decided to choose a path, based on their understanding from someone else, to tell such a person to purposely choose a path that does not match the already known path, is actually creating an imaginary path. And, that is why J Krishnamurti did and actually, he really failed. | |||
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kulkarnn - 2008-08-04 7:10 PM Next, even if you started with different point and on a different path, as long as your action is inspired and targetted towards F, you shall reach the same F. ===> This is a personal belief, not a fact. Unless you have experienced F, it's very existence is merely a belief. a) Trust in Neel that F is there and it is found in the Starbucks. Also, possibly trust in Neel about the addresses of STarbucks. ===>Since the world is full of people who make totally conflicting claims about knowing F, unless you have yourself experienced F, you are going on blind faith. (I am not valuing or devaluing faith, merely pointing out that that is what you are relying on.) As Ram correctly pointed out, there have been people who actually know Starbucks, and F both. ===>A belief, not a fact. Hearsay evidence at best. They tell that if you go to Starbucks and drink F, you shall get such and such enjoyment. Those who have been to Starbucks, many a times, in many ways, also know different paths to get there and they can easily guide those who wish to enjoy F. ===>Again, since there are so many people who say that they have been to Starbucks and enjoyed F, and they all give totally different directions to getting there either 1) they are lying or mistaken or 2) the way to Starbucks is personal and must be found by each individual (not that knowledge learned from others cannot be helpful on this quest.). Of course, the ones who want to choose their own paths, are free to do so. And, that is what exactly happens. ===>That is also what the "Great Souls" did! I am personally more inclined to follow their example than their words. But, if one has decided to choose a path, based on their understanding from someone else, to tell such a person to purposely choose a path that does not match the already known path, is actually creating an imaginary path. ===>I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying here. And, that is why J Krishnamurti did and actually, he really failed. ===> JK was also teaching a path. The pathless path is still a path. How do you know that JK failed? If he did not attain the exact same goal that you are seeking, does that make him a failure? Did he achieve his goal? How do you know whether he did or didn't? Have you achieved your goal? If not, are you therefore a failure? I am not for or against JK, but rather do not feel competent to judge his inner world. I am also not competent to judge yours. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Dear jimg: I think this will be my last take, since after this I feel it is only an intellectual arguement, which I am not totally against, rather than any useful in my own case. 1. Of course, one is free to choose whatever path they want and that does NOT make them Great Soul. That just makes them a soul that chose their own path. 2. Choosing a path based on belief by another person, does not make that person a NON Great soul. I shall leave it to the interested ones to find or decide whether the persons who followed the paths by belief or the persons who followed the non-belief path were successful or failures, or great or non-great, or such. 3. Saying that information from outside sources is helpful is also a kind of belief system. 4. Yes, I reached my goal. And, I am sure that JK Failed. And, yes, I am sure he did not reach his goal. He got too much into intellectual jargon, which was intially useful and also attracted the crowd. Later, too much of that jargon, led him ashtray and his followers. It became a blind leading another blind. 5. I am not stating that one should believe in any and everything from any source. But, in my experience, I am sure that belief system is the ONLY one that works. Believe me! | |||
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| Dear Neel, If your current path is working for you, GREAT! My current path is also working for me. As soon as my current path is no longer working, I must obviously find a new one. Since my current path is evolving and not static, I think that that is unlikely, but I am always open to and encourage growth. I agree with your points about JK's public persona/teachings, but cannot agree that you or anyone else knows what is going on inside another human being. He failed at his public goals but may (or not) have achieved his private goals. (I am not his judge or the judge of anyone else.) Since JK's teachings were a big question and not suitable for people seeking answers, his followers were probably unable or unwilling to find their own answers and therefore his teachings were useless for them. Since they were followers, they were obviously seeking answers, not questions. I don't consider that we are having an argument but rather that we are discussing issues that are important to each of us. If you consider our exchanges an argument and feel the need for a winner and a loser, I will be happy to call you the winner. If you consider them a sharing, I am happy to share with you and hope that you can share with me in the future. Yours, Jim | |||
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| Ram |
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| Neel it's interesting you bring up JK. Before finding my path and feeling it was authentic I studied JK. I never felt I got past the mind with him. Never felt it in the spiritual heart. I simply stopped and was blessed to discover SY. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Hey Brother Jim: Actually, I like your challenging arguements and I have no ill feelings. I also take them as pure discussion. What you stated was asked of me in the past by another member, and let me repeat. I only participate in those threads where I am sure, I do not participate in the threads where Big Brother Bruce only can dare!!! I never stated that your path would not work for you. I was only concerned with those who follow path with a belief or a goal. As far as JK is concerned, I never go out of the way to criticize him. I already acknowledged and acknowledge that he was a great intellectual and if I may say, Philosopher. My current statements about JK were only as a response to your questions or comments. I do respect JK personally. Lastly, the topic of whether Yoga has a fixed goal, is a very big topic and it can not be discussed in a small place like this. But, since I respect and love you, I am giving you the name of the goal of Yoga in Sanskrit Language. But, let us not discuss that further. Yes, and I can accept that that is not your goal for yoga, but what I am stating is from the Classical Yoga System that is established historically. The name is: nishshreyas - the one which is such that there is nothing better than that. OM ShantiH jimg - 2008-08-05 1:18 PM Dear Neel, If your current path is working for you, GREAT! My current path is also working for me. As soon as my current path is no longer working, I must obviously find a new one. Since my current path is evolving and not static, I think that that is unlikely, but I am always open to and encourage growth. I agree with your points about JK's public persona/teachings, but cannot agree that you or anyone else knows what is going on inside another human being. He failed at his public goals but may (or not) have achieved his private goals. (I am not his judge or the judge of anyone else.) Since JK's teachings were a big question and not suitable for people seeking answers, his followers were probably unable or unwilling to find their own answers and therefore his teachings were useless for them. Since they were followers, they were obviously seeking answers, not questions. I don't consider that we are having an argument but rather that we are discussing issues that are important to each of us. If you consider our exchanges an argument and feel the need for a winner and a loser, I will be happy to call you the winner. If you consider them a sharing, I am happy to share with you and hope that you can share with me in the future. Yours, Jim Edited by kulkarnn 2008-08-05 3:42 PM | |||
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| nishshreyas - the one which is such that there is nothing better than that Is that a goal or a way of life? | |||
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| Shakuhachi |
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Member Posts: 28 | Ram - 2008-08-06 12:30 PM Why are you suprised to be "bogged down" in the mind? You have being living in this realm for at least entirely this lifetime. Your switching gears and understand the mind and ego will rebel. Not suprised, just impatient. I have been at his for over 30 years. You talk about going into a "void". It sounds like your moving into this state of consciousness. Sometimes you fall asleep. But you might be falling into a state called turuya (spelling might be wrong). Which is a state beyond sleep. Remember it's your mind that is judging your meditation. My understanding is the mind can conceptualize only a fraction of what your meditation experience. Pretty difficult to fathom consciousness that is not mental. While the mind is limited in handling mediation experience it seem like our consciousness of meditation should be able to have some staying power in the memory. Otherwise it is unconscious consciousness, which makes no sense. | ||
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