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weird request
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zenergy47
Posted 2008-09-04 7:25 AM (#110463)
Subject: weird request


so in class last night, i asked the students if they had any requests.. usually i get certain poses they want but last night i got " can we not OM at the start of class" which totally threw me off b/c i love to do that and love to start my class i that way... i asked why- the student said i just dont like it. i proceeded to ask her if he knew the meaning behind it.. he said sort of but i still dont like to do it... i said you dont have to particiapte in it, he said i refer you not to do it... so out of respect for my student i didnt but inside i was annoyed.. was that more my selfishness coming out.. should i have not listened to him and did it anyways??? . . .thoughts?
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OrangeMat
Posted 2008-09-04 7:48 AM (#110464 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


<p>I would be just as ticked off. Was this class at a gym? As much as you might not like to hear it, you <em>did</em> open up this can of worms by asking if anyone had any requests. I had a somewhat similar situation happen last week when I only had one student show up for a class, and when I asked if there was something in particular she wanted to work on, she said to me "no talking, just hard stuff" (meaning challenging asana). Some people come to yoga class but aren't looking for Yoga. It's a tough lesson sometimes, but not every student who comes to your class is the right student for what you want to teach. But then again, those very students become <em>your</em> teachers, of your Yoga.</p><p /><p>Even though the experience wasn't pleasant, it was still a learning experience for you, and quite a tough one at that (heh, talk about "hard stuff"). As for what you should actually do the next time this happens, I wouldn't know. Follow your heart, I suppose. </p>
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Posted 2008-09-04 8:01 AM (#110467 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


You know the old adage that you can't please all of the people all of the time. Extrapolating further, as Rick Nelson sang, "You can't please everyone so you gotta please yourself."
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penelope
Posted 2008-09-04 9:01 AM (#110469 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


I think you were angry because you compromised your practice - instead of leading by example - maybe a clear definition of what om means (and that yoga is not just about the hatha) next class and allow your students to not join in if they choose so....It is not selfish to aspire to share a clear example of yoga practice.
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hnia
Posted 2008-09-04 9:38 AM (#110471 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


You asked for it. I guess deep down this person doesn't feel comfortable with OM and that could change. In fact just be mentioning that it bothered them might led her/him to a better understanding. There's a Niyama called Satya that I think means truth. This person might not like the way you led OM. They might not feel your voice as a magnet for these sounds. I know I've experienced this. There's also that idea that yoga doesn't have to be spiritual. And some people are not spiritual.

Here's what happened here:
One woman out of the blue during the standing sequence looked at me the other day and spun her hand in a circle overhead because she wanted me to turn the fans on. When I didn't respond, she started to mouth the "turn the fan on." I said I know what you are asking, and I'm thinking about it.....

Luckily I had a smaller fan that I was able to point at her directly 5 minutes later. But I did not want everyone to have the fan on them...so, I did not turn it on.

anyway, I thought you might be interested...
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-09-04 9:40 AM (#110472 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request



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I'm going to be very frank here. I personally do not like chanting OM's in my yoga asana class. I also do not like having that aspect of yoga shoved down my throat by inexperienced yoga teachers and even experienced ones. This is the Western culture. You don't have to do OM's to do yoga asanas and just because you do them, does not mean much either. I think most students here in the West go to yoga class for the asana aspect and is what they expect. Most are not ready for the philosphy of yoga. If you really want to help your students and be a good yoga teacher, you should honor where they are at. The OM's and philosophy's of yoga must be presented "skillfully", otherwise you will most definitely loose your audience.

For what its worth, I do all my chanting at home or in my personal space where I am safe and supported. I also study Vedanta and Yoga philosophy with a guru of my choice and whom I trust is authentic.
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tourist
Posted 2008-09-04 10:20 AM (#110474 - in reply to #110472)
Subject: RE: weird request



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I would have been taken aback as well, I think. With the benefit of sitting here with my coffee and not being expected to give an answer, I think I might as the questions that you did and then give the class a minute or so to sit quietly and do their own inner preparation for the class.
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hnia
Posted 2008-09-04 10:34 AM (#110475 - in reply to #110471)
Subject: RE: weird request


Meant.. yama...
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-09-04 11:56 AM (#110477 - in reply to #110475)
Subject: RE: weird request



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After posting this morning I've been having major after-thoughts about this. I know I've probably disturbed some of you guys....but my point is this....

Sathya Sai Baba has a really nice quote..."A pure thought from pure heart, is better than a mantra". So, having that said....for the western world and these extremely dark times on earth, this is the most important aspect of anything we can do for humanity. IMO, "purity" starts with a simple basic yoga practice. There's so much going on here and so much is at stake. OM's are not as important as establishing a strong foundation for anyone's yoga practice. The rest will fall into place and take care of itself.
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Posted 2008-09-04 12:22 PM (#110479 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


Hello Deb,

You raise two interesting points in your post. The first is the idea of teacher preparation versus student preference. The second is the value of the primordial sound of OM as it relates to Yoga, asana, group practice, and teaching.

When the teacher asks the students about their preferences three things happen: the student is placed in a position for crafting the curriculum, the impression may be given that the teacher does not have one, and an expectation may be created which can place the teacher in a precarious position of choice.

Of these three things there isn't one that I actually find productive. Each of them has their own friction and I don't want to get side-tracked with those three as I think the pitfalls are obvious to see and don't need to be further illustrated.

Thus I don't pose that question you pose except on very rare occasions or in a private session.

The second issue is that of chanting Om or not. And this is a personal decision based on the teacher's practice, studies, and assessment of the class they are teaching. Om and its vibration create a harmony that unifies the work to follow in class. Additionally the sound and vibration, when properly rendered, have tremendous healing powers not to mention significant effects on the central nervous system (they are inter-related).

In addition, OM is one of the ways the teacher holds the energy of the room for the students and the practice (transmission of yoga). A very skilled teacher can omit OM and still hold the room. A less skilled one may not have such a strength. And yet the conundrum is that even with its function of holding the energy it can be "performed (rather than felt) and be almost totally ineffective.

I have found students that do not fancy OM have not been taught its place in yoga and are therefore uncomfortable (or uncomfortable after being taught). And that is fine. Some students come along more slowly in that regard than others. However, when the teacher understands and feels OM in their consciousness I believe that pours out in the teaching. When they do not, it does not.

Edited by purnayoga 2008-09-04 12:26 PM
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nucleareggset
Posted 2008-09-04 1:03 PM (#110484 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


The first few months I went to classes where OM was chanted, I strongly disliked it. Oh, I was already interested in yoga philosophy, and - contrary to purna's suggestion that it had to do with the teacher's intent and spirit behind the chanting - the teacher AND class truly FELT it, even I could tell. But I really disliked being expected to join in, being expected to take part in something that was NOT a part of me, and being subjected to something that really didn't sit well with me.

As you can imagine, I've come around, but, in class, it's more for the other students/teacher, but lovingly given.

I don't do it in my classes, though. Not yet. I may at some point, with some classes. But I think that it's more important to bring in the sutras and philosophy, rather than something that is - quite honestly - less accessible to the average person.

But instances like this make me consider very carefully when I will give my students options and when I won't. Honestly, the first thing that popped to my mind was "what did the other students think".
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Posted 2008-09-04 1:26 PM (#110486 - in reply to #110484)
Subject: RE: weird request


nucleareggset - 2008-09-04 10:03 AM
... contrary to purna's suggestion that it had to do with the teacher's intent and spirit behind the chanting - the teacher AND class truly FELT it, even I could tell..


This isn't contrary. When reading what I wrote above please note it merely says that when the teacher feels OM it comes through in the teaching. In this case the student felt that so it's in accord with what I wrote not discord.

At no point did I insinuate a teacher who feels OM therefore has students who OM along comfortably. I'll try to write with more clarity in the future.
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-09-04 2:22 PM (#110489 - in reply to #110486)
Subject: RE: weird request



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This is interesting, when Satyam and I are together doing pooja, he chants the most beautiful OM's, compared to my "whimpy ones", Sooo, what I usually do is allow his sound resonate through me...without uttering a single note. It's totally awesome. He grew up in this culture and its bred into him, it's not with me and has not been cultivated in the same way.

Soo, having that said, I guess I'm spoiled with authenticity. Once you've had it, it's kinda hard to go back. You know it and understand its sacredness. I'm speaking about all the sutras...although...I can chant Om Nama Shivya like nobody's business - its my favorite, LOL!!!

I can't tell you how many times I've heard from various other cultures that feel the same way about speaking the English language...they say they are intimidated by it and feel embarrassed to speak English to an English speaking person....mostly due to their lack of confidence. So, here again that word "confidence" keeps coming up. When you are with a teacher who has the lack of confidence in their teachings, it shows on soooo many levels. OTOH, when you hear the OM come from an authentic source or with a person who has confidence, it has an authentic vibration that cannot be disputed...it's just there and you know it..you feel it and it resonates inside you in such a positive inspiring manner.

Oh yea, don't get me started on how my Italia was...it took me forever to be brave enough to say Bounicera and Bounjourno...and still...I think some Italians chuckled a bit with my Southern accent,

Edited by Cyndi 2008-09-04 2:25 PM
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kulkarnn
Posted 2008-09-04 4:11 PM (#110494 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


So, Dear ZE: I have few questions for you, before I can give input:

- What is the meaning of OM and also purpose of OM, as far as your own class is concerned?

- What kind of respect or what respect you have for a student when you decided to exclude the OM chanting from your class?

- What about other students in the class? Did you get their opinion?

- Did you find what troubled you after the OM was excluded?

Namaste



zenergy47 - 2008-09-04 7:25 AM

so in class last night, i asked the students if they had any requests.. usually i get certain poses they want but last night i got " can we not OM at the start of class" which totally threw me off b/c i love to do that and love to start my class i that way... i asked why- the student said i just dont like it. i proceeded to ask her if he knew the meaning behind it.. he said sort of but i still dont like to do it... i said you dont have to particiapte in it, he said i refer you not to do it... so out of respect for my student i didnt but inside i was annoyed.. was that more my selfishness coming out.. should i have not listened to him and did it anyways??? . . .thoughts?
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Posted 2008-09-04 5:46 PM (#110497 - in reply to #110479)
Subject: RE: weird request


purnayoga - 2008-09-04 9:22 AM


Om and its vibration create a harmony that unifies the work to follow in class. Additionally the sound and vibration, when properly rendered, have tremendous healing powers not to mention significant effects on the central nervous system (they are inter-related).



Gordon or anyone else who thinks they have an answer,
Please supply explanation and evidence (non-anecdotal). Why is chanting Om three times different than chanting Walmart five times? (Other than the significance that you choose to place on that sound and its intonation.) Also, the sound itself is dependant on the vocal chords of the chanter and where it is focused in the facial and nasal chambers. The vibrations are totally dependant on which pitch is being intoned. If the vibrations of the sound are what does the magic, then either men or women cannot experience/make that magic since they cannot make the same vibrations.

Which, if anything, actually makes any difference and why: the actual word OM, the vocalization, short inhale/long exhale, the number three (numerology is so superstition!), or the class doing it together? OM cannot be a "Primodial sound" because the word did not exist before 1500 BC or so. There are no primodial words because all words were developed by people within their culture inside of known historical times. If OM were a primodial sound, all peoples would have had it and used it from the dawn of time. OM is a Hindu word and a symbol for an idea. There are many such symbols, some older and some much more recent. They are not magic.

Is there something special about making the sound OM or is it simply that the class is breathing/chanting/singing together? How is that different from a church group singing hymns or people saying the "pledge of allegiance" together? Isn't the group being controlled by the leader in each of these examples? May that not be the objection of that student?

I think that it is really time for the yoga community to start asking some hard questions instead of simply repeating what they've heard, much of which is urban legend or simply basic physical laws misunderstood. I think that it is time for all of us to take yoga to the next level; to seperate the actual benefits from the superstition.

If you do not have an understanding of exactly what chanting OM does and why, why are you trying to teach something that you don't yourself understand?

Edited by jimg 2008-09-04 5:55 PM
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kulkarnn
Posted 2008-09-04 6:29 PM (#110498 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


Too Big To Discuss!

Om ShantiH
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Posted 2008-09-04 8:39 PM (#110507 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


Jim

I could not possibly respond to your Tsunami. And if I could, with a bushel of science, I'd assert, you'd not move an inch anyway:-)
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nucleareggset
Posted 2008-09-04 9:01 PM (#110508 - in reply to #110497)
Subject: RE: weird request


ah, jimg, the jesuits were not well liked in the catholic church for a very long time.

I'll answer the bit about the primordial sound thing, as it was addressed in my training. the theory here is that many cultures/religions *do* have similar sound with respect to spirituality - amen, amin, shalom. it's a guttural humming sound, nearly (and the sutras talk about the sound, not the symbol, so I'm not going to talk about the symbol), so it's not hard to imagine a "human" coming across it long ago.

(the vibrational thing? I'm not touching with a 10 foot pole. but, if it's a standard range of human voice, then anyone should be able to make it. (wikipedia claims its ~136Hz, a low C#) now... staying on pitch? heh. not me.
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-09-04 9:48 PM (#110509 - in reply to #110508)
Subject: RE: weird request



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Actually, Jim hit the nail on the head by begging the question..."Why teach something you don't understand". I find this to be true with the Western Yoga realm in general, If you saw my post in the general yoga section in the thread "back to school", you can see that as a student, I'm actually quite annoyed with this aspect of yoga in the West.

Soo, how do we keep the yoga teachings sacred and with meaning here in the West???? I don't think so it will ever happen - any time soon. I think too many yoga teachers are not ready for teaching. They're still working through their own issues, and at the same time, trying to convert and convey to hungry yoga students that are starving for something sacred, authentic and meaningful in their own lives. It just has a weird vibe that doesn't match and fit what brought me to yoga in the first place - and what I was taught by my authentic teachers. This new western take on yoga is really unfortunate. Its like the blind leading the blind. Until then, there is always going to be this debate about what to do with the Western world...how do you deliver the East to the West, and OMG, how do you convert Christians over to the Hinduism culture...hahahaha, with chanting OM's...very funny, I thought we were doing great just by getting them in the door to do yoga asana's with a little teensy bit of philosophy strewn here and there to shake things up, LOL!!
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-09-04 9:51 PM (#110510 - in reply to #110498)
Subject: RE: weird request



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kulkarnn - 2008-09-04 6:29 PM

Too Big To Discuss!

Om ShantiH


Oh come on NB, we've been idle too long now...summer is over, the board is finally getting back to some sense of normalcy.....we need something major to discuss to get this forum going again, LOL!! Besides, we need to wake up those "odderators",

Cheerios!!
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zenergy47
Posted 2008-09-04 10:10 PM (#110511 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


thank you for all your responses so i agree some i dont, i must be honest i just got havent eaten dinner and am exhausted.. will respond tomorrow.. but many thanks for your input.

namaste
zen
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Jambo
Posted 2008-09-04 11:08 PM (#110518 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


Thanks Jim. The yoga world needs a myth buster.
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Posted 2008-09-04 11:55 PM (#110519 - in reply to #110507)
Subject: RE: weird request


purnayoga - 2008-09-04 5:39 PM

Jim

I could not possibly respond to your Tsunami. And if I could, with a bushel of science, I'd assert, you'd not move an inch anyway:-)


I would love to hear some science. I am not set in my ways here. What I am suggesting is that the only reason to chant OM is as a Hindu religous expression, like making the sign of the cross for a Christian or whatever. If Western yoga teachers want to teach Hinduism, great. Their classes should be advertised as such and they should be competent to teach the Hindu religion. To throw in a little bit of a foreign religion out of context into an exercise class is like saying Hail Mary's before a Pilates class!
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Posted 2008-09-05 1:51 AM (#110522 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


We'll have to agree to disagree, agreeably.

Edited by purnayoga 2008-09-05 1:51 AM
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nucleareggset
Posted 2008-09-05 12:48 PM (#110528 - in reply to #110463)
Subject: RE: weird request


that's one of the things that I like about incorporating most of the yoga philosophy - it's not really foreign, even in the west. when you talk about it, think about it, and understand the *message*, it actually makes sense. attachment to things brings pain? well, there's a whole lot to decompress out of that highly efficient little tiny zip file there (hah, I'm using that geek analogy in class!), but after a lot of thought into it, most people get the idea that if you're so attached to having things, when those things break, get lost, get worn, and so on, you get sad. or when you can't get more things, you get sad. hence, your attachment has made you sad. it's only hard because our culture encourages us to think about immediate rewards, not long term pictures. so, sensible, but not our normal thought process.

om, well.. not a thought process.

maybe I'm too logical; it won't be the first time I've been told I'm a little too much in the manomaya, but there ya go. that's my theory.
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