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| Jim - I definitely agree that yoga teachers should not mindlessly spout "philosophy" without having some understanding. It is that touchy-feely, neo-New Ageism that puts a LOT of people off yoga. Cyndi was mentioning the class she went to where the young teacher was mixing Tibetan Buddhism with yoga - that is the sort of thing I can't stand. The "lets all chant Om together and bring world peace" sort of stuff, accompanied by scented candles and elevator music.   But I also agree with Neel that knowledge does not have to be perfect and we can discuss ideas and risk some mistakes in our exploration because this is the way we learn. And we can disagree, as well. For example, Neel has often told us that ahimsa is not meant to apply to the individual not harming him/her self in practice or class. That may not be the classical intention of that particular yama, but it is a useful beginning place for students completely unaware of yoga philosophy. So I feel that western teachers are doing the right thing by putting this idea in student's heads - as long as they follow it up with a fuller explanation at the appropriate time. |
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| tourist - 2008-09-10 7:18 AM
knowledge does not have to be perfect and we can discuss ideas and risk some mistakes in our exploration because this is the way we learn. And we can disagree, as well.
We all make mistakes and all of our "knowledge" is incomplete at best. BUT, when you are a teacher and you are relating "facts" to your students, you really do have an obligation to use a bit of due diligence to make sure that there really is a basis for what you are saying This includes doing research and consulting a variety of sources (yogic and scientific) as opposed to simply repeating what someone said that sounded good. Otherwise yoga teachers are simply people who lead exercise classes and talk a bunch of nonsense during the class, not teachers. |
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| Well. although I agree that we all should be studying this stuff, it does seem a trifle inefficient if nothing else, to each research each piece of information to the ends of the earth. We don't each have to calculate the value of pi for several years to discover it is infinite - we take our math teacher's word for it. One thing I will do for myself if there are things I don't yet fully understand or cannot easily explain to my students is to preface some "facts" with "the yogis tell us" or "the ancients believed". Then the students have the information, but can judge for themselves whether this is a thing they should believe or not. I have to admit though, so many of the claims of the benefits of yoga asana (for example) have been proved by western science to be true, I am now more biased toward believing them than not. |
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| Changed my mind.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-09-10 9:15 PM
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| tourist - 2008-09-10 4:07 PM
Well. although I agree that we all should be studying this stuff, it does seem a trifle inefficient if nothing else, to each research each piece of information to the ends of the earth. We don't each have to calculate the value of pi for several years to discover it is infinite - we take our math teacher's word for it. One thing I will do for myself if there are things I don't yet fully understand or cannot easily explain to my students is to preface some "facts" with "the yogis tell us" or "the ancients believed". Then the students have the information, but can judge for themselves whether this is a thing they should believe or not. I have to admit though, so many of the claims of the benefits of yoga asana (for example) have been proved by western science to be true, I am now more biased toward believing them than not.
Since yoga is such a beneficial practice, we don't need to say things like "this pose will massage your pancreas and bring oxygenated blood to it" and other such nonsense when there are so many ACTUAL benefits that we can and should be talking about. Examples being: yoga's effect on the balance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems and what that means for our health, happiness and longevity or the effects of yogic breathing on asthma and stress related illness among the many many possibilities.
If you are not reasonably sure that something is true, there really are plenty of other things that you can say where you are a lot more certain. If you don't anatomically understand how and why a pose can "massage your pancreas and bring oxygenated blood to it" you should not say it. (FYI You cannot massage your pancreas in any significant way and the oxygen carrying capacity of blood is determined by the amount of hemoglobin present in the blood (which doesn't change significantly short-term), not how briskly you have been exercising, the temperature of the room or whatever.)
Isn't it better to talk about things like how after about age 20, there is no longer any blood supply to your disks that separate your vertebra? The only way they can receive nourishment and waste materials can be released is by moving your spine and the pressure from that movement. This is very important as people age as many of the painful and debilitating back problems people encounter in middle or old age are a result a disks drying out and becoming brittle. Yoga is probably the best method of disk health!
A word on the sympathetic (fight or flight) nervous system and the para-sympathetic (rest and digest) nervous system. When the sympathetic nervous system is stimulated, your eyes dilate and your vision becomes more acute, your brain impulses speed up, your digestive, reproductive and immune systems turn off, your heart rate increases, your blood pressure increases, your muscles tense up, you produce more adrenaline and you get ready to fight for your life or run for your life. Many modern people are in this state most of the time. When the para-sympathetic nervous system is stimulated, you relax and all of those other results are reversed and your body starts to relax, digest and build for the longer term future. There is a dynamic balance between these two systems. They are like the accelerator and the brake. Primitive man sat around resting and digesting until there was a crisis and then fought or ran and if he won or got away, went back to resting and digesting. Modern man stays far too much in the fight or flight mode. Yoga is a wonderful and very effective way to balance this. The health effects of bringing these two systems into balance are enormous.
Since there is so much totally valid information that we can and should be sharing, we really don't need to be repeating things that we don't actually understand.
tourist,
Like you, in situations like the supposed benefits of shoulderstand on the thyroid function, I simply say that yogic tradition says this, but there has not yet been medical or scientific validation. This leaves it up to each student to decide. I also think that that is the most honest approach.
Edited by jimg 2008-09-10 10:51 PM
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| Otherwise, we shall suffer from a disease called 'Analysis' that shall lead to Paralysis of Practice.
It can be clearly seen from the last post of jimg that the examples he has given are more on the physical side where the scientific and medical research can be or has been done. However, to say that we are going to chant OM three times and that is from Yogic Tradition, and there is not Medical and Scientific Research has been done is like saying:
- we are now going to advise love between husband and wife, and there is no medical and scientific research done.
I can safely make the following statement: What is called Medical and Scientific Research today is quite useful in many a ways, but in general, it is a Failure when it comes to Wellbeing. And, therefore, one should not believe things based on M and S research.
Actually, believing things in physical arena on M and S research is very similar to believing things in Mental or Spiritual arena based on Scriptures.
pratyakshaanugaamaaH pramaNani -- patanjali chapter 1.
OM ShantiH
tourist - 2008-09-10 7:07 PM
Well. although I agree that we all should be studying this stuff, it does seem a trifle inefficient if nothing else, to each research each piece of information to the ends of the earth. We don't each have to calculate the value of pi. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Jim - I agree! In Iyengar yoga we tend not to talk about "massaging the pancreas" etc. and teach to the skeleton, the muscles etc. particularly in the early stages. BKS often talks about "wringing and rinsing" the internal organs - the liver in particular. I did ask a physician friend (an Iyengar student) once if that was a valid claim and he said it was, though I could tell by how he phrased it that it is somewhat of a poetic and not exactly an anatomically perfect concept.
kulkarnn - 2008-09-11 3:29 AMI can safely make the following statement: What is called Medical and Scientific Research today is quite useful in many a ways, but in general, it is a Failure when it comes to Wellbeing. And, therefore, one should not believe things based on M and S research.
But I also agree with Neel on this point. There are so many things that western medicine is frightfully unhelpful with that we might as well try to treat some things with yoga, even if we are taking it a bit on faith that it will work. Back pain, many headaches, gastrointestinal things such as IBS - things that the medical community, though they try and help, often cannot treat or they treat it so badly the patient ends up worse than before. And, as you say, these things are often the result of stress and the inactivity of modern living, so yoga can be very helpful there. I think we are essentially on the same page with this!  |
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be | tourist - 2008-09-10 10:18 AM
Jim - I definitely agree that yoga teachers should not mindlessly spout "philosophy" without having some understanding. It is that touchy-feely, neo-New Ageism that puts a LOT of people off yoga. Cyndi was mentioning the class she went to where the young teacher was mixing Tibetan Buddhism with yoga - that is the sort of thing I can't stand. The "lets all chant Om together and bring world peace" sort of stuff, accompanied by scented candles and elevator music.
First I want to say Hi to Jim and dig your knowledge base of the body. I like to teach in a very similar fashion. My years in the fitness industry has given me the experience and knowledge of the human body. With continuous education I have been increasing knowledge for over 24 years with no end in sight.
I enjoyed your post a couple above mine.
Hiya Neel. Haven't been on a lot. Just killing time since my boy is back in school (my oldest one left for college. I miss him terribly).
OK, Tibetan Buddhism????? I am a Rahini Yoga Teacher. Our practice is influenced immensely by Tibetan Buddhism. I can not and will not discuss my personal practice but I can state plainly that music, chanting OM or candles is not related at all to Tibetan Buddhism.
It is too rich in history and a very disciplined practice. Quite honestly it's not for the beginner yogi or even a physical yogi, not that the practice is not demanding and challenging. It's just challenging (always) on the mental level, mix that with physical and either you love it or hate it.
I only teach a true Tahini formatted class with students that are with me 3+ years consistently.
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Edited by mishoga 2008-09-11 10:42 AM
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| Many of the points brought forth in this thread are valid, relevant, important.
And while there are some things, some disciplines that rely primarily or entirely on statistics, study, science, "proof" et al I don't believe that capital Y yoga is one of them.
However, as Neel has already mentioned, modern science (those studies which are properly managed, follow protocols, and are published in peer-reviewed journals) absolutely should be folded in to yoga practice and teaching. Yoga has to grow but it is more a question of managing the growth than having it or not having it. I said "managing" not "controlling".
The wisdom of yoga IS science. It's just not the brand some people ascribe to. It has told us "Hey, look at me. I've got some great things to offer you. Embrace me in whatever way you can". Some people can simply do that, others need someone to tell them to do it, and still others need the New England Journal of Medicine in order to do it. Yoga's offerings will continue to be "proven". And maybe someday people will look at it in the bigger picture it presents. Yoga is actually guiding science. Doubt it? Ask Tim McCall, Mehmet Oz, Gary Kraftsow, the National Institutes for Health, or I.K. Taimni.
What science has proven about the human body is marvelous but it has only scratched the surface.
If I waited for science how polluted would my lungs be from cigarettes? Science has its issues. Number one, some things are very difficult to test, prove, see, or determine. Number two, there's a great deal of money involved in science in a consume economy. And where there's a great deal of money to be made it is easy to dilute the pool. Look at the selling of yoga or organic foods.
Of course I'd share the things Jim has mentioned. I do it already. And I fully strive to share only those things I have a LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING of with students. I'll never fully understand and I'll never know everything, or anything for that matter. Which is why the teacher merely opens themselves up as a conduit through which yoga passes to the student. I am not yoga nor do I own yoga. I am merely a vessel for conducting it.
The issue of teacher dialogue has also come up. And it's incredibly relevant to the progress of yoga that teachers be well trained so that they can share from a level of authenticity rather than just repeating monologues. Sadly, not everyone who is teaching yoga is doing so from a place of having identified their life purpose. And so in our own midst we surely have teachers who don't care deeply about their impact on students as long as they have a lot of them and they are "liked" by them. Trainings often do not offer enough and trainers often are not skilled at either teaching or training.
In this respect I agree with Jim in philosophy but not application. I would not however take something from the end of a continuum and use it as a baseline for proving a point about the continuum itself. Therefore the use of Bikram (or Wikipedia for that matter) to me would not represent a centered position as it relates to yoga.
I would also advocate care in confusing the terms religion and sacred. Etymology is also a nice science but it is incredibly short-sighted to use ONLY a dictionary definition for a word. It demonstrates a certain lack of understanding - though it can be a good beginning to an understanding.
My home is sacred.
My mat is sacred.
My relationships, sacred.
None of them are religion.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-09-11 1:04 PM
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan Buddhism/Tibetan Yoga came from Hindu culture. There is really no difference except that it is richly filled with Tibetan culture, and came from the Shakyamuni Buddha, or aka Guatama Buddha.
The historical Buddha, Shakyamuni or Gautama Buddha, lived about 2,500 years ago in India. However, he was not the first Buddha, and will not be the last either. He taught that during this eon (very long time period, maybe comparable to the life-time of the universe as we know it), there would be 1,000 fully enlightened Buddhas who would introduce Buddhism (after it has been totally forgotten). The numbers one to three in this eon are Krakucchanda, Kanakamuni, Kashyapa, then comes Shakyamuni (the historical Buddha some 2,500 years ago), and the next Buddha will be called Maitreya.
This is another topic all together...which I think we've discussed here many many moons ago, LOL!!
Yoga is a philosophy and a way of life. Just like Hindu and Tibetan culture support this yoga and way of life. It is not a religion, although some could say it was their religion...I do, 
Edited by Cyndi 2008-09-11 1:15 PM
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan Buddhism - T |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan Buddhism - Tibetan |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan Buddhism - Tibetan Yoga c |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | mishoga - 2008-09-11 10:30 AM
Sorry I just had to defend Tibetan Buddhism. It's a philosophy, some would say a religion. Tibetan yoga is different than Tibetan Buddhism. Not many teachers are familiar with Tibetan yogic practices. Maybe a Tantric practitioner could grasp it better.
Ok, I've said my share.......
NO Dissing TB
Actually, Tibetan Buddhism - Tibetan Yoga came |
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| I think it's important to tell students, when you're sharing philosophy, where it comes from ("this is from the yoga sutras") and your relation to it ("I know this one will be a life long labor of love for me!", <laugh>). Not only does it give situational context, but it gives personal context. In this sense, I don't see myself as a "teacher" the way my philosophy teacher was a teacher. Maybe if I got my PhD in eastern philosophy and sutra studies... but I didn't. Instead, I'm sharing something I've studied/continue to study, something I try to practice, and something I find important enough to want to share. That's all I can offer, and it's important for my students to know that I am a student too. Grad students teach undergrads, or seniors tutoring freshman - and a lot of us are in the same position. If we're clear about it, and make sure to not set up too great of expectations, or imply that we know more than we do, I think it's alright - we're just encouraging a conversation, and have a good idea of some insightful questions to ask. |
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Cyndi, firstly HI  How's the Bees? How's your candles doing? You should sell them on Etsy.
Were those puter and system errors or you trying to tell me somethin?
You're Good. Yes, Nada Brahma yogini mitraH
But there are some, not many, who are actually teaching tibetan yoga postures without knowledge of why they are performed. But I guess that happens in many areas of life.
We have discussed this topic many moons ago. Might have to chat more. You can reinforce what is so hard for my brain to retain (I'm a poet)
Metta
Mishy
Edited by mishoga 2008-09-11 3:54 PM
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Mish,
Geez, I have not at a clue about that last post (ings) of mine...I'm horrified, 
I think we came to the conclusion that this was Western Yoga. Or maybe...just maybe we're all little Shakyamuni's running around around here in the Western world....spreading the gospel of Yoga,  |
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| Let me say that I am somewhat of an atheist and grew up with a strong belief in science. However the more I delve into a lot of scientific theories, the more I see how the biases and beliefs of the individual scientists and their culture color these theories. This is also true when I see people who have not done any research but just quote what they read from some yoga journal article as fact. For example Jim states that the earliest known reference on yoga poses is in the HaTa Yoga Pradipika of the 12th to 15th century and uses this to state that yoga is no older than that.
Firstly this is not true. In my limited knowledge I can point to atleast one work in my mother tongue the Thirumandiram that has a section on Yoga including a description of 7 or 8 poses that is ascribed to atleast the 900s or earlier according to even Western scientists.
Secondly accepting the theories of Max Muellar and other 19th century missionary Indologists is like accepting a Saudi Imam's theory on Christianity. Even these so called Indophiles in their own letters indicate an ardent desire to establish the preeminence of Christianity.
Thirdly, anyone with any reasonable knowledge of Indian culture knows that knowledge and teaching are passed from teacher to disciple orally. The Vedas are a prime example of that and they were never written down till a few centuries ago. Even with such an immense body of content there is still no way to determine a date for it with reasonable certainity. Max Muellar who to be fair did a lot to spread knowledge about Indian culture stated "Whether the Vedas were composed in 1500BC or 15000BC no power on earth shall ever be able to determine".
Finally, most ancient cultures are extinct and hence Westerners are used to accepting unquestioned their own interpretations of those civilizations with no one to correct them.
Thus when a still extant civilization encounters what it considers are biased interpretations one should be ready to hear some pushback and try to think about it objectively, though it may hard for someone who comes from an entirely different culture. Otherwise this wouldnt be too different from Western portraits of the east in the 17th century where everyone east of the Mediterannean was depicted as a flying on a carpet and eating live snakes.
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| karthik - 2008-09-11 3:10 PM
For example Jim states that the earliest known reference on yoga poses is in the HaTa Yoga Pradipika of the 12th to 15th century and uses this to state that yoga is no older than that.
Firstly this is not true. In my limited knowledge I can point to atleast one work in my mother tongue the Thirumandiram that has a section on Yoga including a description of 7 or 8 poses that is ascribed to atleast the 900s or earlier according to even Western scientists.
Secondly accepting the theories of Max Muellar and other 19th century missionary Indologists is like accepting a Saudi Imam's theory on Christianity.
The first known reference to Hatha, NOT to poses. Poses of all types have been done by many cultures throughout history for a variety of purposes. Why is it important that yoga is many thousands of years old instead of only just very old? If it isn't working for you right now, it doesn't matter how old it is and if it is working for you right now, it doesn't matter how old it is!!!
I do not accept the theories of Max Mueller, although he did introduce much of the East to the Western world. There is a lot of research being done on the history of India and its culture in most of the major universities throughout the world. There are Sanskrit scholars, linguists and historians throughout the world who all have different points of view, but who nonetheless review and discuss each other's work. Most of these people use the actual source documents, NOT what 19th and 20th century Europeans had to say (or modern gurus). To me, the international historical, scientific or academic consensus seems a more likely source of accurate facts than the theories of self-appointed authority figures whose "facts" are not held under any type of scrutiny.
Yoga is NOT somehow the opposite of science!!! Yoga was developed in the first place as part of a scientific study of the mind and body. Unfortunately, that open minded inquiring has often become dogma. What a wonderful gift we modern folks have; we have both yoga and science!!
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| Well I think we might be talking past each other somewhat. I agree one must constantly evaluate anything including yoga to see how it applies to current conditions and what we know now.
I just think you have an overly idealistic opinion of the scientific world. From my experience having published papers in the broad scientific community I have seen that these themselves are very political (what papers get published/ what theories get supported etc. are all subject to a lot of political and interpersonal factors). Infact any place where there is a large group of people becomes subject to politics.Even places full of so called yogis are subject to the same level of politics as other groups.
It is important to know that yoga has been developed over thousands of years because the poses have been developed by each generation of yogis experimenting on themselves and passing the results on to future generations. While it is subject to the same politics as other fields, the method itself is superior in some ways to western scientific methods which are based on proposing a theory to explain an occurence and then conducting a study with 100s or thousands of people over a few months or a few years at most to verify the theory.
I know of no western scientific study carried over a lifetime, let alone over many generations.
Thus if someone can gain no 'measurable' benefit within a few months or weeks then it would be thrown into the trash heap. Also though many yoga studies have shown measurable short term benefits you can imagine the natural bias of a medical journal editorial board full of doctors dependent for their livelihood on the treatment of trauma cases and diseases (as opposed to increasing the physical and mental well being of a normal human being) against accepting and propogating such studies. It is like expecting a real estate agent to tell you that it is a bad market! They will among the very last people to admit it.
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| karthik - 2008-09-11 9:11 PM
I just think you have an overly idealistic opinion of the scientific world.
I do not have an idealistic opinion of people in the scientific world nor the yogic world. They are all people with all the flaws that people (including myself) seem to have. To say otherwise is like saying that Baptists are better people than Methodists, Hindus are better people than Buddhists or Americans are better people than Danes.
I do have an idealistic opinion of the scientific process. To observe ourselves and our universe with an open mind and then try to make sense of those observations in a logical, repeatable way is the scientific method and also the yogic method as I understand it. This also includes subjecting our conclusions to rigorous testing and re-evaluation whenever new information comes to light. There are just as many "sacred cows" in science as there are in yoga or any other field. As I said before, we need to clean house and keep what is useful and discard what is no longer useful or true at this time.
To me, yoga and science are both processes, not fixed things. The thing that we call life, as well as consciousness, are also processes. A fixed thing is a dead thing, a thing of the past. That which is alive is a process that is happening right now. |
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| Are we done yet? LOL |
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| I think that's why the part of yoga philosophy I like to teach the best are the process ones. The first five limbs of yoga, all the way up to pratyahara are - to me - really are varieties of execution of self-study in a myriad of ways, and self-study is nothing but a process.
I wouldn't really want to throw anything out, myself, because I don't know what my students would relate to and find useful that I don't. The whole idea of surrender to Ishvara as a path to enlightenment - sorry, doesn't ring my meditative bell. (That was an attempt at humor. Fail? ) But for others, I can at least see how it would help. So, would a "house cleaning" remove things that speak to those whose internal "processsing" is different than ours? I don't know. Maybe? Anyway, one of the reasons I like to keep it open, so something can capture an imagination. |
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weird request
