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| I am waiting for the launch of New Sutra which gives clear instructions of how to house-clean the Yoga Sutra. It shall be next best seller!  |
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| Actually, I think the next best selling yoga book will be about housecleaning the unsubstantiated claims and pseudo intellectual yammering of yogis in the pop culture yoga world. This is a great thread and hope this is bantered about a bit longer. |
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| <p> purnayoga - 2008-09-08 5:43 PM too strongly in the mind, too fully in the intellect, it is scarcely possible to hear the voice of the heart. That voice is not the voice of religion or faith. That voice is the voice of your soul. The voice of the soul does not dwell in the mind. The mind is merely a servant. </p><p><font size="3">Have to say I love this! Especially as one who can get stuck in the mind... </font></p><p>My personal choice is to chant 'OM' at the beginning & end of class. I give students an option or an invitation to join in. </p><p>The vibration of the sound is delicious and has a centering effect for me. I know this because I was first introduced to 'OM' in yoga class many years ago. Then I learned more about it based on self study and my yoga journey. </p><p>This seems a good time to recall the experiential nature of the science of yoga. There is much information and yogis encourage that we test and experience aspects of the practice before making a judgement. </p><p>I don't claim to have the 'right answer' only the best answer that I can determine based on experience, study and reflection. </p><p /> |
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| Thank you Jennifer.
I believe though that this board requires bbcode for formatting rather than strict html which may be why your tags are visible above :-)
Ommmmmmmm.
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| what a GREAT OPPORTUNITY for growth and insight you have been given! as this happened some time ago i would be interested in your thoughts about it in retrospect????
one thing i would say is this: it is nice to "take requests" occassionally. HOWEVER, as a teacher, maybe come up with what it is that your students need and teach that. often they do not know what they most need. that is why they are coming to a teacher |
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| purnayoga - 2008-09-08 2:43 PM
When one lives too strongly in the mind, too fully in the intellect, it is scarcely possible to hear the voice of the heart. That voice is not the voice of religion or faith. That voice is the voice of your soul.
I trust that this is an expression of a metaphoric or poetic sentiment.
I think we all need to be careful to distinguish between the poetic or metaphor and the direct reality.
On a direct reality level, the only voice that you can hear is your mind and your heart is simply a muscle that pumps blood. The existence of a soul is a matter of faith and is a religious belief. It is something that your mind has constructed.
If the meaning here is that we are too wrapped up in the words in our head (which are about 70% old tapes that we keep replaying) and need to focus more on living a much more integrated life in the present, I'm all for it. If the meaning is that the "heart" (feeling/intuition functions of the mind) is allowed a more important role and integrated more with intellectual functions of the mind, I'm all for that too. As far as the voice of your soul goes, that is simply the voice of your mind, which your mind chooses to call your soul, as all perception takes place in the mind. I personally don't understand how using your mind to divide your mind into opposing components helps integrate how it functions. This may work well for people with brains that are wired in certain ways, who view life from a different paradigm, but it seems contradictory to me.
Edited by jimg 2009-02-27 1:14 PM
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| Dear ystan: I apologize. I could not quite understand your question. R U saying House-cleaning (noun or qualification) sutras OR house-clean (verb) the Sutras.
Anyway, I wanted to say this regardless of your query, that:
- one has to appreciate that Yoga Sutras of Patanjali were composed around 300 B.C. when the method of passing knowledge was by word of mouth and memorization.
- The sage patanjali has comprehended essential Yoga Practice knowledge in approx 200 lines a fantastic way.
- They are still useful in their original form as standard for Yoga Practice of the Classical Kind.
- There is definitely a literary side of them. I am writing this because I derived a tune for and memorized them in a very short period of time when I first saw and read them. The sage Patanjali has a deeper knowledge of Sanskrit terminology and grammer and also a way to put that knowledge which makes it very effective.
ystan - 2008-09-12 1:48 AM
I am waiting for the launch of New Sutra which gives clear instructions of how to house-clean the Yoga Sutra. It shall be next best seller! |
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| jimg - 2009-02-27 10:11 AM
purnayoga - 2008-09-08 2:43 PM
On a direct reality level, the only voice that you can hear is your mind and your heart is simply a muscle that pumps blood. The existence of a soul is a matter of faith and is a religious belief. It is something that your mind has constructed.
To those still reading this thread AND interested in my reply - though from experience I do not fantasize that would be Jim :-)
Consider reading Joseph Chilton Pearce. When read with an open mind, one may discover some things about the heart that minimize a position asserting it is "merely a muscle that pumps blood".
Or this if you're needing direction.
Edited by purnayoga 2009-02-28 2:39 AM
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Expert Yogi
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| Jim - I do sincerely appreciate your pragmatic and down-to-earth responses. We get a lot of people here who feel that they are so in touch with their heart and apparently foolproof intuition that I wonder why they come to ask our help at all.  
But I am also glad that you allow for the possibility of deeper layers of the "mind" that may be unclouded by the static and chatter that typically buzzes around there. How many of us have made decisions based on what we thought were clear thinking, only to discover that we were dead wrong. And what's more, KNEW was dead wrong on a deeper level all along? |
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| tourist - 2009-02-28 7:18 AM
How many of us have made decisions based on what we thought were clear thinking, only to discover that we were dead wrong. And what's more, KNEW was dead wrong on a deeper level all along?
Isn't that one of the major benefits from the practice of yoga? Being more aware of the deeper as well as the more superficial aspects of the mind?
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| purnayoga - 2009-02-27 11:34 PM
jimg - 2009-02-27 10:11 AM
purnayoga - 2008-09-08 2:43 PM
On a direct reality level, the only voice that you can hear is your mind and your heart is simply a muscle that pumps blood. The existence of a soul is a matter of faith and is a religious belief. It is something that your mind has constructed.
To those still reading this thread AND interested in my reply - though from experience I do not fantasize that would be Jim :- )
Consider reading Joseph Chilton Pearce. When read with an open mind, one may discover some things about the heart that minimize a position asserting it is "merely a muscle that pumps blood".
Or this if you're needing direction.
Gordon,
I am always interested in your replies as they are always interesting. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't, but since we are on separate paths, too much agreement would probably mean a lack of integrity more than a lack of understanding. I looked up Joseph Chilton Pearce and although I don't totally discount the possibility that he could be correct, he is waaaaaaay outside what all the leading minds in neurology (actual scientists) for the last 20 years have been saying, based on thousands of actual experiments and world wide peer review. Personally, I give his theories a highly improbable, but possible rating. You may be enamored with his theories because they agree with your other ideas more than that they make sense.
Jim |
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| I only share with others what I have to share. I'm uninterested in debate. Some will take it and some will not. Those with further interest can look AND feel for themselves - starting here.
I take "science" as PART of the picture, not the entire picture. Yoga (for me) is a process of balance. That balance must be holistic and allopathic, in the lab and in the body, with emotion but not overly emotional, with rationality though not overly rational.
If someone's path works for them and requires a double-blind study published in a peer-reviewed journal, so be it. Fine - for them.
A mindful yoga practice that cultivates deeper awareness and sensitivities should actually lead science, not wait for it. We provide the fodder for the studies of tomorrow.
Edited by purnayoga 2009-03-01 3:45 AM
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| Here's the way I see it.
If you grasp the idea that intelligence is fundamentally held in each cell at the atomic level. i.e. that the cell is where intelligence is stored, at an atomic holographic level.
Then because you have a more dense concentration of cells in the brain then you might get the illusion that thoughts form in the brain primarily.
But the whole nervous system will have response to stimuli so you can say that you could think from the heart or stomach, depending on where your attention is.
Deepak Chopra is a big advocate of this approach to the mind if you want to read more on this?
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| purnayoga - 2009-03-01 12:38 AM
A mindful yoga practice that cultivates deeper awareness and sensitivities should actually lead science, not wait for it.
I wholeheartedly agree. It only becomes problematic when the internal perceptions of yoga and the external perceptions of science are at odds with one another. I do not believe that one approach trumps the other, but subjective internal perceptions can be as far off as faulty "scientific" conclusions because it is always the subjective mind that is drawing the conclusions. At least the scientific method has "objective" peer review, which is a reality check that subjective internal perceptions do not have. As you say, we need a balanced approach. This balanced approach does not use science to prove our theories, it uses science as an independent test of reality, without preconceptions. Otherwise, the testing and the results are both prejudiced before you start.
I think that at this point in history, this planet needs a lot more rational "scientific" study (yoga included) than all the superstition that is causing suffering, chaos and the possible demise of our planet.
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| Phil - 2009-03-01 4:52 AM
Here's the way I see it.
If you grasp the idea that intelligence is fundamentally held in each cell at the atomic level. i.e. that the cell is where intelligence is stored, at an atomic holographic level.
Then because you have a more dense concentration of cells in the brain then you might get the illusion that thoughts form in the brain primarily.
But the whole nervous system will have response to stimuli so you can say that you could think from the heart or stomach, depending on where your attention is.
Deepak Chopra is a big advocate of this approach to the mind if you want to read more on this?
I grasp the idea, I just think that it is a very far-fetched theory that has more to do with marketing that reality. It has no anatomical, biochemical or bio electrical basis outside of pop "spiritual" culture and is science fiction or pseudo-science, not science (like astrology, alchemy, numerology etc). (Yes, I've read a number of Deepak Chopra's books. My wife even went to one of his meditation training's, which was a total sham.)
Yes, our entire bodies are interactive, but if you injure certain parts of the brain, no thought can occur. You can injure every other part of the body and still have thought. You still have thoughts and feelings with an artificial heart. An injury to certain parts of the brain can stop the ability to experience emotions, the ability to perceive one side of your body, the ability to see even though your eyes are working perfectly, the ability to understand language, the ability to have memory or consciousness etc etc. There are many fine books about neuroscience. If you are really interested, get one. Wider Than the Sky: The Phenomenal Gift of Consciousness-Gerald Edelman, In search of Memory:The Emergence of a New Science of Mind-Eric Kandel, Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain-Antonio Damasio. These are serious works by Nobel prize winning neuroscientists written for a wider audience. I'm not trying to be elitist here, but if you really want to understand how something works, ask the leaders in that field, not pop culture sales and marketing pros.
As far as I'm concerned, Deepak Chopra is a big advocate of making lots of money off the gullible with feel-good theories that have no basis. |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You guys are analysing way too much. As an observer of this thread, all points are well taken as something useful...but, definitley nothing to be grasping around about, LOL!! Sorry guys for popping in...couldn't help myself, |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jim,
Go Jim Go!! Unfortunately, yogis love pseudoscience, and not well-thought argument and reason-so blood-suckers like Chopra swarm in on the yoga commmunity. Phil, shame on you
http://www.rickross.com/groups/deepakchopra.html
Go to the site above for details of Chopra's shenanigans-don't know how he has time for all of it plus ripping off the public and convincing them of his grandeur. I spend all my time studying the subject I love, he must have extra hours coming from somewhere Once he's on the scent of money, there's no stopping this bloodhound
For those of you interested, I read Jim's book, which I did as a scientist-it was the first book on yoga postures which I have ever read which outlines a yoga practice which is therapeutic-every other book is so badly rationalized, they don't come close-including Coulter's useless tome which has become required reading on so many yoga teaching courses, plus many other books purporting to have scientific basis as a foundation.
It is a regular occurrence to see me cringing and wincing when I read yoga books, so it made a refreshing change, thank you Jim-hope you don't mind me bringing that up.
Nick |
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| Hi Guy's
Of course that idea is not in the realm of actual science (being testable).
It's more meta physics, so who really knows?
Is Chopra really so evil  ?
But others like Rupert Sheldrake and Robert Anton Wilson play with this idea.
Jim's book sounds interesting for Nick to big it up so much.
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Location: London, England | Hi Phil,
Well, now it's mid-morning and I'm not so cranky, I'm not sure if I would regard him as evil-but this person quoted below would probably say he is:
"Yes, DEEPAK CHOPRA IS A HYPOCRITE. This is classified information–this is why I am posting it on the INTERNET! Every time a friend of mine mentions him, I have to tell them the truth about Deepak Chopra. I used to work in a law firm and he used our services to try to fight someone in a case. When he knew he was losing the case, he came into our building and brandished a gun, threatening to murder the attorney working on his case. The security guards had to protect the attorney, until things settled down with Deepak. Until this day, it still makes everyone in the workplace CRINGE to hear his name! Just because he has a “foreign name” and rips off of Buddha (or tries to) doesn’t mean he’s an Englightened Being. He’s far from it."
I get a bit sick of all these people sticking some initials after their name to peddle their wares, and others who turn proof on its head in order to prove their own point. Chopra uses science and discredits it at the same time, a tactic which is commonly used by diet gurus all over the world (he peddles ayuvedic medicines).
Nick |
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Location: London, England | CHOPRA: "You know, I think it shows such a lot of arrogance, such a lot arrogance and no humility whatsoever to assume that this multiple universes that are right now exploding and dissolving into singularities and all the workings of nature are accidental. It's like a hurricane blew through your junkyard and it left and now you have a Boeing 747 and it's all accidental. It shows tremendous arrogance, Larry."
That's a quote from the Larry King show. it's the first time I've seen the Boeing 747 argument-creationists and proponents of intelligent design have been using it for a number of years, so I was quite pleased to see it being used, rather than derided. As it would be in the literature that I read.
Nick
Edited by Nick 2009-03-02 8:08 AM
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| Ok I get it you don't like Chopra!
I'll have to remove all my books before you visit next time, otherwise you might start burning them on the living room floor.
In fact I've probably got a lot of other stuff you'll hate as well.
You could get a nice blaze started with the Osho shelf.
Phil.
Hey this is Juliet now, Phil's lady, getting in on the act. Just wanted to say, after reading Nick's quote about Deepak from the internet 'bout him with a gun etc... You know you can find alot of stuff about alot of people on the internet, that really doesn't make it even closely true!
I've read quite alot of Deepak's books, sometimes I've found them really uplifting and helpful, and sometimes I haven't been able to engage with them, but I've never felt exploited by them or harmed by them in any way. |
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| eh, like cyndi often says, it's all learning.
here's the truth as i see it: a lot of pseudo science things do exist in some helpful way. that is, chakras may not be 'scientifically' proven, but i find them to be useful tools and i do believe that they exist. i feel similarly, btw, about acupuncture, qi, and meridian theory/energy body in general--again, no way to "scientifically" prove them by western, modern standards, and yet thousands of years of work on the subject with discernable benefits to large communities over time, plus one's own experience of working with energy for healing purposes MIGHT just convince someone that these things 'exist.'
and i'm not in that for the money...but anyway.
this thread is hella-old. LOL and so is that phrase.
y |
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Location: London, England | Oh no, together they're formidable, actually Juliette's formidable all by herself . That's true, Juliette, could well be malicious and completely untrue-but there does seem to be an incredibly large and vocal opposition to him. Not that it guides me, my dislike of his ways is all my own Phil, I already noticed your chopra, I'm going to cut out all the pages and fill your books with Richard Dawkin's works.
Seriously though, I think what Chopra has done is to take theories such as quantum mechanics and use them to justify vast tracts on the human condition, and how to improve it. He has taken parts of the theory which embellish his purpose, and then made up the rest to form a coherent argument, albeit flawed.
If this sounds arrogant on my part, I'm sorry,but the arrogance of a amn who claims that because he has the answer, i.e. God, then it is I, who has not discovered the whole truth with regards to how the universe is formed, who must justify my stupidity for not seeing that there must be a creator.
Nick |
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| Hey Nick, you know i love you! you do believe in love don't you?
Truely, thanks for throwing some doubt and questions out there, it's never a bad thing to question things.
Sometimes, I get low, and find it all hard, and finding something to read, that has a positive message, and lifts me up, even momentarily, is a welcome friend, with love JU* |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ju,
Yeah sure I do-it's one of the only things I do believe in Weird isn't it?Love you too Juliette
Nick |
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weird request
