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A Very Serious Question
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btfreund
Posted 2009-02-09 5:54 PM (#113506)
Subject: A Very Serious Question


Please ask yourself, are you still getting closer to God?

Any ideas, even great ideas can turn into traps. You don’t have to put together the right combination of ideas and find your own way. If you can truly admit that you are willing to change then just tell this to God and ask what’s next.


Edited by btfreund 2009-02-09 6:05 PM
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Oz1
Posted 2009-02-14 3:00 PM (#113628 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


You have to find your own way, and sincerely asking God which way that is may yield a good answer if you believe in God, and if you ask with love and compassion - the qualities that inspired all religious concepts, evolving some 35,000 years before writing and any text books such as the bible (as evidenced by more than 40,000 year old burial sites).

I don't mean to pick you apart, but asking what's next means nothing unless you take action. 'God' cannot do that for you, compassion can.
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way2turiya
Posted 2009-03-10 12:35 PM (#114404 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


I tend to think that we are caught up with everything including ideas however logical or spiritual it may be! If not for some short commings, we may hardly be willing to question what's beyond all this seemingly good and bad etc., Freedom is what we all seek from bondage. Now the question is 'What's the way out'.Can we reason our way out? Recognizing that we are in trap is a first step and probably if we can increase our level of awareness, may be a way out. Mind, spitting thoughts ceaselessly, is unable to find solution, until it is kept quite. Until we come to this point, arguments will continue.
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Posted 2009-03-10 1:39 PM (#114408 - in reply to #114404)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


Freedom, bondage, reason, God, quiet etc are all concepts, creations of the mind.



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way2turiya
Posted 2009-03-12 10:12 AM (#114496 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


every word, image, idea and language for that matter are creation of mind and in deed we are caught in a world created by our minds. So it becomes imperative to transcend our minds to perceive "what is". Awareness (choiceless) not intellectualization alone is the only way - yoga/meditation fecilitate this.
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Posted 2009-03-12 12:31 PM (#114498 - in reply to #114496)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


Awareness, whether choiceless or not, is also part of the mind because it is the mind that is aware. "You" cannot transcend your mind because they are the same thing. You (your mind) can, however, be aware of what is actually happening internally and externally right now. Or, you can instead be fixated on re-running all the old tapes in your mind over and over and projecting them into the future.

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jaikrsna
Posted 2009-03-14 5:43 PM (#114544 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


jimg: Awareness, whether choiceless or not, is also part of the mind because it is the mind that is aware. "You" cannot transcend your mind because they are the same thing. You (your mind) can, however, be aware of what is actually happening internally and externally right now.

traditional teachers tell us that we are not simply the body, nor the mind, but something deeper and more.

touching that is yoga. when the mind settles, we rest in the splendor of the true self. traditional teachings of patanjali ;) i know this will not change your "mind."
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Posted 2009-03-15 2:45 PM (#114566 - in reply to #114544)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


jaikrsna - 2009-03-14 2:43 PM

traditional teachers tell us that we are not simply the body, nor the mind, but something deeper and more.

touching that is yoga. when the mind settles, we rest in the splendor of the true self. traditional teachings of patanjali ;) i know this will not change your "mind."


Despite being quite advanced for their time, traditional teachers did not have a very clear understanding of how either the body nor the "mind" actually works. We really have learned a couple of things in the last several thousand years, especially in the last several decades. If the "traditional teachers" had had the technologies that we have today available, they probably would have come up more accurate answers. Since they did not have microscopes, CAT scans, etc or an understanding of biochemistry, they were guessing about a lot of things. Some of those guesses were remarkable and some were just plain wrong. Remember that these "traditional teachers" were also proponents of the caste system (which is racism at its worst) and a whole lot of other socially and personally unhealthy practices.

So are you saying that "the splendor of the true self" is unconsciousness? Either you are conscious, where you are aware, which is your mind, or you are unconscious and therefore unaware. Either your mind fluctuates or you are unconscious. If your mind does not have anything real to deal with, it will make stuff up (dreams or fantasies). It is the nature of the mind to fluctuate. The fluctuations of the mind are what make consciousness possible. We benefit from being more aware, as that makes us more alive and gives us an edge on survival. Being unconscious is being unaware as well as dangerous for our survival.

You quote Patanjuli as if his writings are true. How do you know that Patanjuli (who compiled, not wrote the Yoga Sutras) wasn't just repeating a lot of nonsense or even understood the teachings that he wrote down? Do you know this or is it a religious belief? Is it rational that you can get the strength of an elephant by meditating on an elephant? Or be light as a feather? Are the Yoga Sutras metaphors or were they meant to be taken literally? Are these truths or personal beliefs?

Why do you think that there needs to be something "more" than the body and mind (which are a single entity, not two entities). Isn't your "deeper and more" simply a projection of your mind? Isn't seeking that "deeper and more" just an unquenchable desire for more, instead of contentment and joy in what you have right now?
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tourist
Posted 2009-03-15 9:20 PM (#114576 - in reply to #114566)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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Jim - the yogis don't equate the brain with the mind. Do you?
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Posted 2009-03-15 10:53 PM (#114582 - in reply to #114576)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


I view the mind and brain roughly as follows:

The brain (including the nervous system) is the organ and the "mind" is how we experience the functions of that organ.

The mind is our subjective experience of the higher brain functions (consciousness and semi-consciousness) and also its contents, including memory. The "mind" includes all our conscious perceptions (higher brain functions) as well as our being aware of being conscious (also a brain function). "You" and your mind are the same thing. They are functions of your brain and nervous system. Without mental perceptions (fluctuations of the mind), there cannot be an entity that perceives. That does not mean that we need to (or even want to) live with an overload of mental chatter or worship the "words in our head" above all else!

If you totally stop the words, you still have images (like when you dream). Your brain makes thoughts and perceptions happen no matter what. If you forcefully repress those thoughts and perceptions, your brain will replace thoughts with fantasies or hallucinations.

All of the above are bio-chemical and bio-electrical processes and are not static. Memory is not static but also a process and a memory is recreated and "remembered" slightly different each time. Consciousness is also a dynamic process. All life is a dynamic process and fixed things exist only in our imagination. Although some things appear to be fixed, everything that we know of is, on an atomic, cellular as well as "mental" level (including the self or mind), in a constant state of change. (You are exchanging "you" with the environment with every breath!) This change can be either growth or decay. We are constantly building new neural pathways, strengthening old neural pathways, and/or allowing old pathways to atrophy.

Patanjuli did not know about the brain or how it works. He did know about the subjective workings of the mind within the context of his culture and time. The "mind" is a construct of the brain, so you cannot understand the mind without understanding the brain. Although brain science is still in it's infancy, most of what went before was superstition or logical conclusions based on misinformation.
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tourist
Posted 2009-03-16 9:54 AM (#114593 - in reply to #114582)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
50002000100010010010010025
Not sure if that is a yes or a no....
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belle vie
Posted 2009-03-16 3:07 PM (#114608 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


Veteran

Posts: 168
1002525
Me to, Tourist.
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belle vie
Posted 2009-03-16 3:18 PM (#114609 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


Veteran

Posts: 168
1002525
I meant, Me too Tourist
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Posted 2009-03-16 9:55 PM (#114620 - in reply to #114593)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


tourist - 2009-03-16 6:54 AM

Not sure if that is a yes or a no....


Does it matter?
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Posted 2009-03-27 5:37 PM (#115001 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


Surrender is death. Its opposite, force, is violence.

Each is by itself negative.

We must die to be re-born. Our "old" selves (cells as well) must die for our "new" selves (cells) to be born. If more cells are dying then being born, you are in a state of decay. If more cells are being born than dying, you probably have a tumor.

Growth is the dynamic balance between force and surrender. It cannot happen without both.


Edited by jimg 2009-03-27 5:40 PM
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Posted 2009-03-28 12:26 AM (#115005 - in reply to #115001)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


I meant control, not force.
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btfreund
Posted 2009-05-07 6:45 PM (#115789 - in reply to #114582)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


jimg - 2009-03-15 10:53 PM

"You" and your mind are the same thing. They are functions of your brain and nervous system. Without mental perceptions (fluctuations of the mind), there cannot be an entity that perceives.


Wow, and on a Yoga for self realization forum. If you want results this is one idea you ought to seriously question.
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santidevi
Posted 2009-06-02 3:58 PM (#116289 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: RE: A Very Serious Question


How does one come closer to God when all Is God? There is no separation, no other. Thou art that.
santidevi
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Posted 2009-06-02 8:59 PM (#116296 - in reply to #115789)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


btfreund - 2009-05-07 3:45 PM

jimg - 2009-03-15 10:53 PM

"You" and your mind are the same thing. They are functions of your brain and nervous system. Without mental perceptions (fluctuations of the mind), there cannot be an entity that perceives.


Wow, and on a Yoga for self realization forum. If you want results, this is one idea you ought to seriously question.


If you want results, you need to first question your desire for results. Who is desiring those results? Who does that entity want those results for? Why is that entity desiring something that is only hearsay? (If you have not actually experienced something, it is only hearsay or a projection of your mind, something that exists only in your imagination.)
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rbon450
Posted 2011-06-15 6:34 AM (#208651 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


Member

Posts: 20

I feel i am not a part of world. I feel i am flying in the sky of time. No bond is there. Nothing is nothing. Only a real feeling of good. I think i can tell the fact properly.
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jpg
Posted 2011-06-15 12:52 PM (#208662 - in reply to #208651)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


1002525
rbon450 - 2011-06-15 6:34 AM

I feel i am not a part of world. I feel i am flying in the sky of time. No bond is there. Nothing is nothing. Only a real feeling of good. I think i can tell the fact properly.


You are a part of the world and the world is also you. There is a irreversible bond between you and everything else. Every time you breathe, you are exchanging yourself with the world. Same with eating and drinking. You are dropping off cells into the world all the time and making new ones from the raw materials of the world. You are a continuum, not a fixed thing!!!!

That continuum that is you is just one part of many larger continuums like those dolls where each one is nested inside a larger one.

If you really do "feel" disassociated from the world instead of an integral part of it, you may need to be talking to a professional about that.

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rbon450
Posted 2011-06-28 8:03 AM (#208803 - in reply to #113506)
Subject: Re: A Very Serious Question


Member

Posts: 20



rbon450 - 2011-06-15 6:34 AM

I feel i am not a part of world. I feel i am flying in the sky of time. No bond is there. Nothing is nothing. Only a real feeling of good. I think i can tell the fact properly.


You are a part of the world and the world is also you. There is a irreversible bond between you and everything else. Every time you breathe, you are exchanging yourself with the world. Same with eating and drinking. You are dropping off cells into the world all the time and making new ones from the raw materials of the world. You are a continuum, not a fixed thing!!!!
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