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| I've never heard the term "engaging the core" referenced by any of the many Bikram teachers I've taken classes with. It was something frequently referred to in other yoga classes I took. I'm recently back at yoga after a hip injury and during physical therapy there was a huge focus on core strength to protect the hips, lower back etc. Since back at Bikram's I have made remarkable progress in some of the floor poses simply by "engaging the core" and don't understand why this isn't incorporated in the Bikram dialogue.
I wondered if the referral to engaging the abs and sucking in the stomach is supposed to do the same thing?
PS. Hi all, I'm new here. Nice to meet everyone!
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| Hi Angelica, nice to meet you too! 
There are a lot of words that you hear in other classes that just AREN'T in the dialogue. Like "butt"! I think we talked about that here a while ago. The dialogue never says "butt," it always says "hips." Comes down to the same thing, just a matter of terminology. So "core" is not in the dialogue either, but there is a LOT of "stomach." "Stomach stomach stomach," "Suck it it," "Compression of the abdominal wall, contraction of the abdominal muscles, suck it in, tightening up, and hold it" - those are all in there, and yes, it's the same idea.
One thing about the Bikram dialogue is that it uses very PLAIN language in a lot of ways, to make it accessible to everyone. Because honestly, if I'm a random Joe off the street and someone tells me to "engage my core," I have no freaking clue what that means. (And neither do a lot of yogis, actually... ) But "suck your stomach in" - oh, yeah, of course, I know how to do that.
Also - and this is just conjecture on my part, hope it's not too abstract - one of the most interesting things I ever read about physiology is that your mind commands your bones, not your muscles. When you go to lift an arm, you don't picture which muscles are going to relax and contract to complete the action. You picture the way your skeleton, your bones, are going to move, and the body responds appropriately. It seems to me that Bikram understood this intuitively, because so many of the commands in his dialogue just tell you WHERE to place your body parts. Arms touching ears, leg parallel to the floor, arms back, chest up, hips forward. Those commands will go straight to your brain, your brain talks to your muscular unit (the proprioceptive system really) and your body responds appropriately. There are a few very notable exceptions (like "lock the knee"!!!), but I think that a lot of the series works this way. If someone tells you to push your hips forward, you automatically use your butt. If someone tells you to lift your chest off the floor, you automatically use your back. If someone tells you to interlock your fingers and grab your foot in front of you, the only way your body can make this happen is by "engaging your core," so to speak. The dialogue makes it all happen, and your mind stays out of the way. (This is the ideal scenario - teacher has perfect dialogue and student is perfect listener. Never QUITE happens that way, but.... it's the idea.)
If you did a lot of extra work on your core muscles in physio, then I'm not surprised that you've seen an effect in your practice! That is very cool. I love when outside activities can supplement our yoga like that. Keep that up!!! |
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| I agree with much of what dancingj is saying, but I'm also thinking of some of the exceptions and oddities.
Here's a strong confirmation of the idea. Suppose the dialogue told people which muscles to use to lift the legs in locust. When I started, I didn't even know how to contract those muscles. I wasn't aware that they existed. And just telling me what to do with my body position didn't do the trick at first, either. One day, they simply popped up more off the floor. A similar thing happens over time for engaging the lower back in Cobra. It took me a long time to understand what it was I was shooting for in that pose, and I still say many people who have been going for a long time who still just go through the motions in that pose.
Another example is in the first pranayama. A good deal of pranayama is designed to get you to work the intercostal muscles. This is another one that people basically don't know a thing about. And even now, if someone told me to flex my intercostal muscles, I'm not sure what I would try to do -- except maybe do the first prianayama.
Now, for an exception. The dialogue says to lock the knee. One of the steps to locking the knee is to lift the kneecap. Most beginners don't know how to do this. But they do know how to flex the quadricep. So when you tell someone to flex the thigh, the kneecap lifts. But if you tell them to lift the kneecap, often you get no response at all.
I also wonder about the general instruction to "engage the core". The core has lots of muscles, and its not clear to me that you want to engage all of them at once, or even that its possible to engage them all. My guess is that lots of the core muscles are probably paired, similar to the way that biceps/triceps are paired, so that it is not possible to flex them both at once. (Of course, at this point, I'm guessing and am beyond my competence in anatomy.)
Duffy |
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| I knew I read something about this before... if you are curious about this idea of "engaging the core", this NYTimes article is worth a look. A quote:
“There’s so much mythology out there about the core,” maintains Stuart McGill, a highly regarded professor of spine biomechanics at the University of Waterloo in Canada and a back-pain clinician who has been crusading against ab exercises that require hollowing your belly. “The idea has reached trainers and through them the public that the core means only the abs. There’s no science behind that idea.”
The article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/magazine/21FOB-physed-t.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=core%20muscles&st=cse
In the end, the piece basically says that you need to work on ALL the muscles around your spine... front, side, and back. If you focus too much on just one area, everything gets thrown out of balance. HMMMM... can anyone think of any kind of exercise routine that does something like that? ;) |
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| Thanks dancingj and Duffy for your comments. I realize that I am not very well educated as to what the "core" really is. I was thinking it was the pelvic floor - those inner, inner muscles that women can access via kegel exercises and that I have no idea how a man is supposed to access but supposedly there's a way. My physical therapist would have me do exercises where I engaged the pelvic floor, then sucked the stomach in and tightened the abs, then released the pelvic floor while sucking the stomach in etc. etc. OY! It reminded me of that old trick where you pat your head with one hand and rub your stomach in a circular motion with the other - to prove something but I've no idea what
When I started back at yoga after a 7 months break I was astounded at how engaging the pelvic floor (what I thought was the core) helped. I've always been careful about sucking the stomach in and tightening the abs to protect my back but once that pelvic floor is engaged I've felt an incredible feeling of strength and solidity. I noticed it most doing locust and full locust. I find it hard to suck the stomach in while lying on it but getting those pelvic muscles involved gave a whole new meaning to the posture.
I am being extra careful not to reinjure myself. It's been a great learning curve for me not to be so competitive with myself about how far I can go in the poses and really work on building strength on the inside first and then moving deeper into the poses. For years I relied on my flexibility and that's what got me hurt!!
Edited by Angelica 2009-08-03 4:32 PM
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| Angelica, those exercises sound pretty AWESOME. (And hard!!) And I don't think you're WRONG for considering that your "core," not at ALL. I think part of my point was that since everyone has different IDEAS of what their "core" is, it has become a very imprecise term. Seems like if the teacher says "engage your core", you're gonna do your Kegels and the guy next to you is gonna suck in his stomach, and everyone's doing their own thing! So that is my answer to your original question of "why didn't someone tell me to do this before?" It is such an individual thing...
That flexibility is a double-edged sword sometime, ain't it!? |
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| it is true that "core" seems to be interpretive in meaning. it's why i do not use it.
i tell my students to engage mula bandha (arches of feet, quadriceps, and pelvic floor) and uddiyana bandha (transverse abdominals). i explain this as "sucking in the stomach muscles like at the beach when a cute guy/girl walks by, and then go into more detail over time.
in an advanced class, i only say "mula bandha everyone" or "uddiyana bandha folks!" but in a beginner class, i talk about 'draw in the stomach (or belly)" and that usually helps.
it's interesting that i think of movement and alignment in terms of the skeleton--since our body moves the skeleton. i just sort of naturally came to that myself. that's interesting. |
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| Zoebird - I like the beach analogy for the abs. I imagine you could use it equally well for the glutes!
I have not heard of engaging the arches of the feet. Is that used in particular poses? It sounds rather difficult.
dancingj - I read the NYTimes article you posted and found it very interesting. Definitely important information to have. Had no idea how so many of those ripped looking six packs resulted in back problems but can understand why now. And yes, the flexibility thing is very much a double edged sword. From what I understand it's the "over" flexing that does the damage but I don't know how a teacher is supposed to be able to tell that a student is doing that. Or for that matter how the student knows. I was told I had been over flexing my hip joints but didn't really question what that meant. Guess I need to find out - do either of you have any idea how a person 'over" flexes? |
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| zoe - YES, isn't that skeleton business COOL? It was such an "AHA" moment for me when I read that, because intuitively it makes so much sense, but I had never seen it spelled out like that before.
angelica - I have no idea what "over flexing" the hip joints means. Maybe if you gave us an example of a pose where it would happen, that would help?
Since we're on the topic, here's my stance on "over flexing." I'm sure that PLENTY of people will disagree with this, but... I don't really believe in it. My single guiding principle is that flexibility and strength need to balance each other out. So there's nothing wrong with being flexible and having a wide range of motion; you just need to learn how to engage your muscles more to support that flexibility. The teacher should be able to see if you are relying on your flexibility but not using your muscles. It's very visible. But I don't think I would ever tell a person that she was over flexible, I would say she needs to build strength! Find ways to use your strength in EVERY posture. Add, don't subtract. (It sounds like this is what you are learning to do. Awesome.)
The other pitfall of flexibility is that you can have "too many choices." The postures are perfectly safe, but they DO need to be done in very precise alignment. If your body is very stiff, there are not so many options, so there are only a few ways that the alignment can go wrong, and the teacher will usually notice these mistakes very quickly. For the flexible body, body parts can also go off and do things that they're not supposed to, which messes up the alignment. It's natural. As one of my teachers told me, "even the very flexible body always seeks comfort." But if you have "lots of options," your mistakes may not be so obvious, so it is up to YOU to pay extra attention to the dialogue and be vigilant about proper form. |
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Regular
Posts: 73
Location: The City of Brotherly Love | Just wanted to say that I'm loving this thread, thanks for the great discussion. DancingJ we should get Bikram or someone high up at HQ to read your posts. If anyone ever deserved a "scholorship" for training it's you! If you can translate how you write into speaking and watching, then you are gonna be tremendous. The Philly school sends people to every training (you may have met one or two at the advanced seminar). I haven't visited since '03 I believe but If you go, then I will do my best to get there for some of those posture clinics especially if it's in Vegas. My wife has always wanted to take me there since I've never been. It's a win-win all around! 
Edited by Roy Batty 2009-08-05 7:41 AM
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| dancingj:
that's exactly how i describe is issues surrounding hypermobility/flexibility. the whole point is proper alignment and engaging the muscles properly.
i find that people who are "naturally flexible" are often harder to teach because they often refuse to modify in order to engage the muscles properly. the want to look like the picture and they 'can' even though the alignment is way off. so, i have to teach them about strength and muscle balance.
but i find that when i have one of these gals (they're almost invariably gals) in my class, i just teach a strength-based class. i teach a sequence that involves engaging muscles rather than seeking flexibility per se (utkatasana vs uttanasana). so that they *must* strengthen those muscles. LOL sneaky, i guess.
angelica:
in regards to the arches of the feet, it's really about how we stand and use our feet. i tend to attract clients who either collapse in at the ankle (and knee usually) or flat footed clients. so, i focus on how they should be using and engaging their feet throughout the practice.
the proper position of the foot is important in every pose. of course, postures have different foot positions too. LOLbut for most standing poses, the arch lift is part of it.
i think that a posture in the bikram sequence that is definitely a working posture for strength and balance is in the utkatasana series. knees apart, on toes, lowering down. that is a very difficult posture to align properly, but once aligned, it does so much for the whole body. a lot of strength involved.
in my classes, i teach it with props. a block between the knees helps to keep that alignment in play. i have them slide down a wall for a few tries to get the back right. if i don't have them do that, i use a ruler (which i walk around with) and i have them straighten up against the ruler. sometimes, there is a strap around the ankles to keep them from popping them out to the sides.
and sometimes i'll even put light sand bags (or eye pillows) on each shoulder to keep the shoulders down and back.
seriously, it's a fantastic pose. |
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| Roy - Can you imagine the shit-show that would follow if Bikram actually turned up on the boards?! Hahaha... but seriously, thank you very much for that post, cause you pretty much made my day. Again. I promise that you will know about it right away when I finally get signed up for one of the trainings! |
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| DJ - I'll ask the physical therapist what she means by over flexing. I'm quite sure it's all about not tightening up the muscles and supporting the joints before moving into poses like you said. I think it was Standing separate leg stretching pose and also triangle where I did the joint in. I think I was "hanging" in the joints too much - especially triangle if we had to hold it for a long time and I was tired.
ZB - your classes sound great. It's wonderful to have teachers and very experienced yoginis so willing to share information - thanks!!
Edited by Angelica 2009-08-05 8:26 PM
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| TRIANGLE, ok yes, that makes a lot of sense. I'm convinced that triangle pose is sooooo much harder for the flexies at first. If you're stiff, you go down as far as you can and that's it. If you're bendy in the hips, you've gotta seriously work those muscles to get yourself into the right alignment instead of collapsing into your hip. It kinda hurts. (The good news is that eventually, when you get everything placed right and get just a little stronger, you will be able to do a KILLER triangle pose. And the MORE strength you use in the pose, the easier it becomes. It's a little bit counter-intuitive that way.)
I wouldn't think separate leg stretching would be a problem, though... I mean, you're SUPPOSED to hinge forward as much as you can... but of course, I can't see your postures, so I can't really know what you're doing.
Glad this is helpful to you, by the way. I am having a lot of fun in this conversation!! |
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| Zoebird and dancingj, just want to add my gratitude for this helpful thread, you've opened my eyes to a different approach, which I'll be applying next class (yay)! |
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| I love what you just said about triangle, dancingj - I have been going through this myself. For the longest time I just had an ugly triangle, like so many beginners, and experimented in different ways. I finally figured out that I needed to be sitting down more, but it KILLED my hip on the bent leg. It hurt a lot. I would sometimes have to turn it into a lunge so I could collapse down and stand up because I couldn't take the pain. I asked one of my teachers about it, and he said that his best guess was because my hips were so flexible that I didn't have the strength to support them, but that it would come in time if I just kept trying. Over the last couple of weeks, my hip has finally stopped hurting, and triangle is so much easier for me, and if I peek in the mirror, I think it looks pretty decent now, too. Anyway, just had to share bc I was excited to see that someone else understood the pain of triangle for us hip-flexy ppl.
I can't really picture overflexing in the hips on separate leg stretching either - I've done my knee in before with the help of that one (by relying on flexibility and not building strength in the quads), but haven't had any problems with my hips there. I'm interested to hear more from Angelica! |
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| I think the reason I felt I had overflexed in separate leg stretching is because I could feel the hip joint make a kind of "clunk" as I was pushing my behind towards the back wall and bringing my head to the floor. I was working very hard to keep my back straight as I brought my chest down and it just felt like something was a bit loose in the joint. Then going into triangle right afterwards, every day for weeks on end having tweaked the hip continued to aggravate it. I was building muscle and strengthening the hip joint after it had slightly rotated forward and virtually locked it into the anterior rotation. I'd been doing Bikram's off and on since 2004 without any problems at all so I didn't pay attention to the pain and stiffness I was starting to feel. It was only when I started waking up couldn't even put weight on my left leg for about the first hour of the day that I knew I had to get it looked at. (yes, I'm VERY stubborn)
It's been such a learning curve for me with regards to proper form being so much more important than depth in the poses. And how important all those pelvic, stomach, back etc. muscles are in protecting us from injury.
Thanks for the encouragement on the poses DJ - I love that way of looking at it!! |
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| Ah, I totally know what that clunk noise is! I used to walk to work every day, and for about a year I was walking on concrete, about 3.5 kilometers (a bit more than 2 miles), each way, and in not very good shoes for it. I started getting that clunking noise in my hips doing other movement and it took me awhile to figure out what was causing it. I got better shoes for walking and then it healed on its own. Maybe it was something else you were doing that caused the hyperextension, and then you felt it/noticed it/aggravated it in separate leg stretching? I feel your pain! |
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| Oh thanks for the sympathy jtho!! You may very well be right. I've heard those kinds of things can be there for ages and then just catch up with us one day! |
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Bikram Yoga and Core Strength
