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Member
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| I'm wondering whether anyone has any stretches/tips for opening up the thoracic verterbrae?
I've been practicing Bikram for 3 years now but no matter what I try I just cannot backbend into this area and am at my wits end!! It honestly is like that area is fused it's so flat and there's no movement at all. Whenever I backbend it all goes into my lumbar region. Then when I do final stretching that part of my back has a distinctive 'hump'. I've tried bridges and wall bends and doing camel without pushing my hips forward but nothing can crack into it. I look like some messed up parallelogram!
I really feel like I'm not going to be able to move forward in my practice unless I get this sorted out so if anyone has ANYTHING that might help I'd be so grateful to hear. |
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Veteran
Posts: 149
 
| have you had an xray... it may be that you have some compression fractures there??? how old are you?? |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Thanks for your suggestion.
I haven't had an x-ray but I'm fairly sure it's natural curvature. I'm 26 and have always been told to "pull my shoulders back". I've got quite a sway in my lumbar spine so I think the "hump" in my thoracic spine is kind of a counter-action to that.
I don't know if it's any use by I'll try and attach some images highlighting my problem.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| Yup - your back is curving where it wants to curve and not where it needs to curve. Those joints will not be happy over time if you continue to work that way. A few choices - a good physio, a good Pilates teacher or a good Iyengar teacher.
FWIW, most of us have one bendy bit in our spine that does all the work. I taught an older man with terrible back problems for awhile and one day I told him he had a very flexible back. He was stunned, as he always thought he was so inflexible. Well, he was! Everywhere except the one lumbar vertebra that did EVERYTHING when it came to moving his spine. 
Good luck! Let us know if you get any good help. |
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| So here's MY question. Who or what gave you this idea that you can't "move forward" in your practice "until" you change the shape of your spine?
Changing the spine is a long-term process. Very long term. If you're practicing all the postures correctly, you WILL continue to move forward (and sometimes backwards or side-to-side), but some things will be quicker to change than others. I remember there was this one girl at my teacher training who had a very flat thoracic spine. She went up and showed Bikram her rabbit, and Bikram went "awwwwww" and laughed (not meanly). He said, "It's ok, sweetheart. You're doing the best you can. You will keep the yoga studio in business for a long time!"
With that said: How many times per week are you practicing? When you tried the wall walks, how many were you doing per day and how long did you do them for?
Like tourist says, this is REALLY common. Virtually NO ONE is born with a perfectly curved spine. And most people's thoracic spines don't move, like, at all. It's anatomical - that part of your spine has the ribcage and all the internal organs attached! Very tricky to create a curve there. At least you have SOME backbending!!
If I could see your postures in class, I could give you some ideas for how to work the postures. Do you hear "chest up" in pranayama a lot? Make sure you're getting your spine really long and open in the first 10 minutes of class. In half moon, listen for the "full lungs, stretch up, touch the ceiling" before EVERY side bend and back bend, to make sure you're putting space into your spine before you go into any bending. Especially backbending, go step by step. Full lungs, stretch up, drop your head back, then drop your arms back. In that order. START by reaching your arms back, trying to bend your middle/upper spine, and then go all the way down.
I hope no one's giving you a hard time saying "OMG don't backbend like that, you're gonna hurt yourself." You've gotta just work with what you've got. Work towards the ideal, but know that it's not gonna change overnight. My favorite teacher always liked to tell us, "Your only problem is that you THINK there's a problem. It's not a problem if you don't try to solve it!!" |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Thanks for your reply and tips. It's entirely self-driven pressure to work on my spine. Of course my attention was drawn to it by teachers but by no means any negative comments attached.
I want to progress in backbending, stretching etc. but there's only so far I can do so in the lumbar as has been the case to date. I practice beginners every day and advanced twice/week. Lynn Whitlow was here recently and mentioned the tips you said re. the backbend during beginners and wall walks, and I've been quite conscientious in doing so. Never had any corrections in pranayama or half-moon to that effect but will certainly try those things now.
Don't get me wrong, I realise that it's natural to have that curvature and will take time to change. What concerns me is that even when I try my hardest I don't see ANY movement in that area, so can't tell whether all my efforts are making a difference or if I'm going about it the wrong way and need to switch tactics. Thanks again for your encouragement!! |
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| Hi Martie,
It sounds to me as though you are trying too hard. Remember that you "progress" in yoga by the quality of your awareness, NOT how deeply you go into your poses. As your awareness develops, you will "know" how far is the right amount on any given day or practice. As long as you are doing the poses correctly, it will all happen in time; don't worry about it. We are all unique human beings who need to find our own way, within a given practice or on our own. Don't compare reality (how you are right now) to fiction (how you think you "should be"). Simply do the practice, open your mind and body, and let it go. The "goal" of yoga is the process!
Jim
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Veteran
Posts: 149
| wel... here is some hope for you LOL
I DO have two compression fractures in that part of my spine and when the chiropractors saw me coming they all ran AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I was SO immobile there and I got a lot of pain when sitting for any period of time over just a few mins. Enter Bikram Yoga......... no pain and can move my mid spine and a chiro can actually adjust it now and move it. |
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| Thanks Amy, awesome story. By the way - good for you!!!
Martie, that's great that Whitlow was there and you got a chance to learn from her. Good times. I really like her classes.
I agree with Jim that WATCHING for progress is always a good way to frustrate yourself. The whole "watched pot never boils" idea. Best to just relax, do your practice, keep trying the right way, and see what happens! If you are always doing your backbends thinking, "Rats, my middle spine is soooo inflexible!" then your spine is gonna stay that way. Emmy always says: "Be careful what you think; your cells are listening." Maybe you should do backbends and think, "Yeah, my middle spine is soooooo flexible!" Couldn't hurt. ;-)
Now as far as tactics go, you never answered my question about the backbends down the wall: how many did you do, and how frequently? I was just taking class with the world champs last weekend, and Kaspar (the men's international champ) was saying that the key to those backbends is frequency and consistency. He says it's MUCH more effective to do 10 backbends EVERY day than to do 20 backbends every other day. Start with something small and manageable but be VERY consistent about it. I haven't tested this theory yet, but it's on my to-do list... start doing backbends... I'm curious to see what would happen! |
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Member
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| The wall bends are not as frequent as they should be apparently (maybe 3ish times a week). That's really interesting to hear Kasper's advice and will try for each day now! Brandy and him are coming December and I can't wait! And yes, Lynn was amazing, so lucky to have had her here.
In my heart I know this is gonna take time so I guess I will have to step back a bit. I'm aiming for the comp. in December so was hoping to move things along a little.... ;)
Thanks for your comments!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| 2 questions-
1) Why on earth have you been told to pull your shoulders back (it will only make you stiff) ?
2) Why do you want to open up your thoracic vertabrae (sounds like an operation or something out of a horror film)?
Now it is so much easier and simpler than the posters here think it is to achieve flexibility here- Do the following gently, without effort. Relax any unnecessary tension in the neck, hands, feet, legs, back and face. Then slowly slowly move into bridge slowly, till you feel the first thoracic vertabrae. Then rest. Then repeat many times resting inbetween and try less and less. Then go from first thoracic vertabrae up slowly slowly and as easialy as you can to upper thoracic vertabrae or even first cervical vertabrae you reach. Then slowly come down one vertabrae at a time. rest. repeat moving frommid-upper thoracic and back down, When you come down let go of weight of spine. The less you try the stronger and more flexibile you become. Feel how the whole body from the feet to the head can become involved in someway. Then move from mid thorcaic spine to upper thoracic spine several times (resting frequently). Then from mid to lower thoracic. feel each vertabrae. There you go - you are moving you bending from different thoracic vertabrae now. Many people even if they have practised years of yoga are still unaware of their spine and its movement potential. Some people wouldnt even be able to feel their own individual thoracic vertabrae on the floor. The less you try hard the more you will achieve have fun. |
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Member
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| Thanks Vibes, will try out your technique tomorrow.
re. your questions, 1) I was told this as a child (not during class!!). Just illustrating my postural issues.
2) Perhaps I should have worded it better :) Of course I mean making the verterbrae more flexible. |
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New User
Posts: 2
| What's a coincidence, Martie -- I just happen to be searching for information on the same problem. My mid spine is similarly inflexible, and not only does it seem to impinge my ability to perform some bendy poses (like the wheel), it also seems to reduce my breathing capacity really significantly (as shown by a spirometer test). If it's any comfort, your pictures suggest your back is more flexible than mine. Anyone else with a similar problem? Let's put our heads together and crack this.
I've been getting help from various medical/healing/bodywork people. My physical therapist gave me two exercises, including something very similar to the one Vibe recommends. The other exercise is a tail bone tuck (lie on the mat, make sure your spine is as straight as possible, then tuck your tail bone). For these exercises, I've been told to make sure there is no gap at all between my spine and the mat. Normally there is a bit of space in the lower back when you lie down. Make that space disappear by making an "imprint" on the mat with your lower back. (Pilates emphasizes this a lot.) There should be a bit of tension in your abs. These two exercises seem to work in combination -- the tail tuck emphasizes one of the least inflexible parts of the spine, giving you the right feeling to do the slow bridge. If you tuck your shoulder blades into the back pocket, that seems to make these exercises even more difficult.
Try doing the bridge when you're sweaty. You can feel the mat gradually peel from your skin as you arch up, if you're doing the exercise right.
I am also trying acupuncture. My acupuncturist independently came to the same conclusions as the other medical/healing types I saw. The treatment with needles hasn't yet solved the problem. I am also trying the foam roller on my back. (I lie on the roller and move back and forth.)
You know, you may be better off going to a physical therapist and getting treated for your specific condition. Have you tried rolfing?
Hobbes, off to pounce on Calvin |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Thanks Hobbes, I feel your frustration! I've not tried that tailbone tuck exercise but I'll give anything a shot.
Funny you mention the back massage roller as I've just got my hands on one since I last posted. It's not foam but wooden with a groove for your verterbrae down the centre. I'm not sure there's any visual difference in my thoracic area but it certainly feels more free after I've been using it. I guess it's a similar principle to rolfing? I've heard it works on the connective tissue (fascia) either side of the spine.
Another theory (for me personally) I've come up with is that my problem might be compounded by tight muscles around my chest and shoulders. The tension restricting working into that area of my spine. I've been doing shoulder stretches, like clasping my fingers together behind my back and lifting them up as far as possible while pushing out my chest (I guess like an upright camel). Again I feel like it's making some difference but have yet to see results visually. I'm gonna perservere for a while and see what happens.
I've been to a chiropracter a few times which was amazing overall but not much help for my problem. This also leads me to believe it may be a connective tissue or muscular issue. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Martie,
Just a quick couple of observations-in your forward bend, the backs of your elbows are facing the floor-you are probably creating a force vector to which there will be an equal and opposite reaction-kyphosis (excessive curvature) of the thoracic spine. Perhaps try to make it so that your elbows begin to flare outwards as you go into the posture. When we are beginners, we just try to fold in half like everyone else, over time, we realize it's more complex than that. Note also that the way you do the posture makes you lose your lumbar lordosis and increases your cervical lordosis-very surprised that any teacher lets you get away with that. To address this, your pelvis needs to tilt, or put it another way, your hip joints need to flex. In the picture, your pelvis is more extended than I would be happy with even if you were sitting upright, so it's way off the mark in helping you discover good spinal mechanics.
Can we have another pic of you standing upright, normal standing posture? just so we can see what your normal curves are like (spinal curves, that is: ).
Nick |
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New User
Posts: 2
| Martie, you might also want to try the following exercises. These are among the exercises prescribed to me for my problems. I don't know whether they will work for you -- again, professional help is probably best.
1. Lie down on the mat. Make an imprint with your lower back, and tuck your shoulder blades into the back pocket and hold for five seconds. Do sets of ten reps.
2. Get on all fours and do the cat-cow stretch, taking care to flex the spine one vertebra at a time. Imagine a point traveling up and then down your spine. Do sets of ten reps.
3. This is a version of cat-cow that focuses on the mid-thorax. Get into a full cat. Now do the cat-cow with just the upper half of your torso. So the point, instead of traveling up and down the entire length of your spine, now just goes from the lowest point of your ribs (approx. the start of the mid-thorax) to the neck. This one is quite difficult, and requires a lot of attention. Again, sets of ten reps.
4. Get a half roller, i.e., a roller that has been sliced in half so the cross-section is a semi-circle, and NOT a shorter roller whose cross-section is still a circle. Lie down on the half roller. (It should be perpendicular to your spine.) Do slow crunches, taking care to feel every movement of every vertebra of your spine as it moves along the circular surface of the half roller. First do the crunches with the half roller at the bottom of your mid-thorax, then with the half roller higher, around the lower part of the shoulder blades.
Good luck. Anyone else having the same problem? |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Thanks so much Hobbes. I feel now after trying out a few things I AM making progress (saw slight movement in camel ;).
Good luck to you too and keep posting with your small victorys!! |
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Member
Posts: 22
| Hi, martie - the wooden roller with a cut-out for the spine sounds positively dreamy. Where did you find it?
Wishing you many rewarding yoga sessions. |
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Member
Posts: 8
| http://www.themaroller.com/
had mine since '72 when i was into macrobiotics, wouldnt be without it. |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Yes, that's similar to my one, thanks Snake. Marian, if by "dreamy" you mean "brutal" then yes!! A bit like Bikram....you get the benefits after the brutal classes :) |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Happy to report a positive improvement from using everyones suggestions!! Thanks guys.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | That looks like a stage. Did you compete, bychance? |
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Member
Posts: 13
| Yes! My first competition. It was intense and I got too nervous so didn't do as well as I could have. Never to mind, it gave me a fire in my belly for next time. Stretching is my worst posture so I'm keen to fix things soon!!
Edited by martie 2010-12-20 7:44 PM
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| martie,
Look at your earlier photo in detail (hips, lumbar, thoracic, neck) and then your last photo. Wow!!!! Excellent!!!
jimg |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Congrats for trying and wow. I could never do that. We had a couple people from our local studio go to the regional competition. The guy placed 2nd, and I guess he can go to nationals or something. His scorpion is freakin' amazing. |
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Opening up thoracic spine
