 |
  |
 |
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
Site Areas  |
store | | | articles | | | forums | | | studios | | | vacations |
|
yoga | massage | fitness | wellness | meditation |
|
|
For future visits, link to "http://www.YogiSource.com/forums".
Make a new bookmark.
Tell your friends so they can find us and you!
Coming soon ... exciting new changes for our website, now at YogiSource.com.
| ||
 Chest breathing.Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
childofthetao |
| ||
Member Posts: 23 | Hi, I am used to doing qigong, where breathing into the belly is stressed. In qigong terms, breathing into the chest is a sign of tension. I ask this because I use David Swensons Ashtanga Yoga DVD in which he pretty much always breathes into his chest. My questions is this: Breathing into anywhere except the belly is a sign of physical tension: Is this anatomically true? Thank you Calvin | ||
| |||
| tourist |
| ||
Expert Yogi Posts: 8442      | No. anatomically speaking you cannot breathe into the belly because the breath goes into the lungs. My suggestion is to breathequi gong techniques when doing qui gong, but use the breathing techniques given by yoga teachers when doing yoga. It does take some practice to learn to still the abdomen without tension. You may want to find some pranayama classes so you can learn the yoga techniques separately from the asanas. | ||
| |||
| yogabear |
| ||
Regular Posts: 86 Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Breathing into the chest is also a sign of tension in vocal performance, and will lend tension to the voice. Yogic breathing is different. Just as breathing for distance running is different from sprinting, is different from weight lifting is different from swimming. Each form of exercise; although yoga and singing are far more than merely exercises; involves its own technique of breathing. | ||
| |||
|
| ||
| When you inhale, your diaphragm flexes and pushes down, causing lower air pressure in your lungs than in the surrounding environment. This causes your lungs to fill with air. As your lungs fill with air, your ribs lift up and out (like the handle of a pail) so that your lungs can expand. As your diaphragm descends, something has to give and your abdominal muscles and your lower ribs will expand to allow for the increased size of your chest cavity and decreased size of your abdominal cavity. (Care should be taken to not breathe into the upper chest as that tenses the neck and shoulders, which is bad for yoga, singing and many other pursuits.) In yoga, it is better to not distend the lower abdomen and rather pull it in and up as this helps support the lower back. (Distending the lower abdomen when breathing can also cause excessive lordosis of the lower spine which is to be avoided in yoga, especially the standing poses.) When you exhale, your abdominal muscles and the intercostal muscles (between your ribs) push the air out as they increase the air pressure in your lungs. I teach (in yoga and French horn) to keep the lower abdomen pulled in and up, and feel the lower ribs expanding, in the front, to the sides and in the back when inhaling. I also remind my students to not lift their upper chest and shoulders when inhaling as this causes unwanted tension in the upper body. | |||
| |||
| childofthetao |
| ||
Member Posts: 23 | Thanks for the information. | ||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574  | If you want flexibility of breath/breathing and flexibility of all the muscles involved in breathing it is essential the back,abdomen and chest are all moving and involved in breathing. Functionaly speaking there are times when its better to have the abdomen contracting and there are times when it is best to have the abdomen expanding. Look at a baby who has been unspoilt by years of poor habits and trying to do things in a 'correct way'- their bellys,chest and back move. From a scientific perspective how can breathing into the chest be a sign of tension? Your ribs are their protecting the lungs. For the lungs to function fully the ribs need to be able to move. Even for fuller breath into the abdomen (meaning the abdomen being more involved in breathing the chest has to move if you want more strength from the abdominal region. It is good for the chest and shoulders to lift when breathing in or out. It is also good to differentiate the shoulders from the chest too. It cannot be of benefit to keep the belly pulled in. Unless you want to fit into tight trousers. If you want to breathe fully your abdomen needs to be able to expand and contract to its anatomical limits of comfort. Someone mentions above care should be taken not to breathe into the upper chest as this tenses the neck and upper body which isnt good for yoga, singing and other pursuits. This is not true. Babies breathe into the chest and abdomen and back. While being physicaly more fit/active than adults and not suffering as much physical tension. In the same way you can have sex and tense the upper body or you can relax it. You can also softly breathe into the upper areas of the body. I understand yoga is constantly evolving and recently there was a craze of core stability which has now been proven by several professors and sports scientists to be unbeneficial for fitness and serves no good purpose. I think some yoga instructors fell into the core stability fad and are still followers of core stability. With singing chest and abdomen are important and more importantly its good to sing the he whole of oneself/body. When singing high pitch vibrations are felt higher up while in low, they will be felt lower down. While the abdomen generally is naturally drawn in for high pith sounds and outwards for lower pitch sounds. It is good to allow the abdomen to thus be free and the chest free if you are to allow yourself to develop and improve, while fully expressing and understanding yourself. | ||
| |||
| yogabear |
| ||
Regular Posts: 86 Location: Jacksonville, Florida | vibes - 2010-10-06 7:15 PM We were talking about the use of accessory muscles used to breathe, which is a sign among paramedics and other medical personnel of respiratory distress. From a scientific perspective how can breathing into the chest be a sign of tension? vibes - 2010-10-06 7:15 PM [...] It cannot be of benefit to keep the belly pulled in. Unless you want to fit into tight trousers. If you want to breathe fully your abdomen needs to be able to expand and contract to its anatomical limits of comfort. [...] I understand yoga is constantly evolving and recently there was a craze of core stability which has now been proven by several professors and sports scientists to be unbeneficial for fitness and serves no good purpose. What scientists and professors? Are you referring to the bandhas of the body when you say "core stability" and "belly pulled in"? I might add both of these are broad categories and/or generalizations if they are at best and poor definitions at their least. The reason I ask is the is the Ashtanga Forum. Edited by yogabear 2010-10-06 9:12 PM | ||
| |||
|
| ||
vibes - 2010-10-06 4:15 PM Look at a baby who has been unspoilt by years of poor habits and trying to do things in a 'correct way'- their bellys,chest and back move. It is good for the chest and shoulders to lift when breathing in or out. With singing chest and abdomen are important and more importantly its good to sing the he whole of oneself/body. When singing high pitch vibrations are felt higher up while in low, they will be felt lower down. While the abdomen generally is naturally drawn in for high pith sounds and outwards for lower pitch sounds. A baby does not stand upright and a baby's spinal column has a different shape than that of an adult. Babies are physiologically different than adults. Comparison between babies and adults is therefore often misleading. When you lift your shoulders during inhaling, you tense your neck (and vocal chords). This constricts the air column, produces unwanted tension and is therefore to be avoided for yoga, singing or playing a wind instrument. You obviously are not a singer, singing teacher, wind instrument player or wind instrument teacher. The abdomen is drawn in for ALL pitches as it is the abdomen (as well as the intercostals) that pushes the air out. The lower ribs and upper abdomen expand quite a bit during inhale and contract during singing or playing a wind instrument. Your middle chest also expands somewhat during inhale and contracts during singing or playing a wind instrument, but to a lesser degree. You need an equal amount of support (abdominal pressure or pulling the abdomen in) for high and low pitches. With high pitches you have a small air column traveling quickly and with low pitches you have a large air column traveling slowly. In both cases you have a more or less equal volume of air and need the same abdominal pressure. | |||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574 | I can lift my shoulders inhaling or exhaling with tensing or without tensing the neck. Next time you yawn and stretch in the morning and the arms and shoulders lift and stretch along with the chest you may notice the throat widens. There is no single correct way to breathing. Breathing changes smoothly with every change of movement,mood,situation and environment. Breathing is related to posture and movement. Using only the diaphragm, as is sometimes advocated by musician, eliminates approximately one third of vital capacity (according to scientific research and the book -respiration the breathe of life by Peter Sebel). Other studies indicate it could be higher than a third (as demonstrated by Bergofsky inn his detailed study- relative contributions of the rib cage and the diaphragm to ventilation in man). There are clearly many cases in which musicians require full capacity of breathe, not just two thirds of their vital capacity. Also, since maximum expiratory flow is possible only near total lung capacity and decreases progressively as lung colume decreases, the matter of full expansion obviously effects lung function as well as lung volume (see Essential Medical Physiology by Leonard R Johnson). Movement of the rib cage portion of the bellows occurs mechanically through what physiologists often call "bucket handle" motion of the rib cage, wherein the rib cage (a series of bucket handles connected to the spine and sternum) moves upwards and outwards upon inhalation, downward and inward upon exhalation. If the rib cage remains fixed (as some people mistakingly seem to think is a good idea), wheher in a downward or upward position or anywhere along its range of motion, it's mechanical purpose is thwarted. That is to say the rib cage must move up and down, in and out in order to work as a bellows, At no point whether through training, concentration, or superhuman effort, can a person cause the diaphragm (not to mention the lung itself, which is passive and completely without muscle) to simply take over the rib cage's portion of mechanical movement, whether during inhalation or exhalation. If the rib cage motion is inhibited and only the diaphragm used during inhalation, the efficency of the entire respiaratory system is compromised. Respiratory physiologists have shown that the respiratory system works best as a whole, not through isolation of individual muscles like drawing in the abdomen. In other words it is best to perform singing,yoga,playing an instrument, making love, sports with the whole of yourself. | ||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574 | Its good to know where you come from, where you are and where you are going. We all were babies in our earliest years. | ||
| |||
|
| ||
vibes - 2010-10-06 4:15 PM I understand yoga is constantly evolving and recently there was a craze of core stability which has now been proven by several professors and sports scientists to be unbeneficial for fitness and serves no good purpose. I think some yoga instructors fell into the core stability fad and are still followers of core stability. Core stability is not a fad or a myth. It is also not a simple method for curing all back problems. Most people understand "core stability" as more muscular abs. The abdominal muscles are only one part of the many core muscles and they should not be over-strengthened in isolation, as that will cause an imbalance. At the same time, people often have excessive lordsosis of the lower back due to weak, lengthened abdominal muscles and tight, shortened lower back muscles. In this case, strengthening the abs is exactly what is needed. It will not help other back problems where a front/back muscular imbalance is not the problem. Please take the following quiz: 1. Core stability (strengthening) will solve all problems. 2. Core stability (strengthening) is useless. 3. None of the above. The human body is far too complex for simplistic black and white thinking. | |||
| |||
|
| ||
| 4. I want to date a girl with mad core stability | |||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574 | 3. What's your response to my posts after the one you have quoted jimg? If the human is more complex than being black and White-the reason for the above mentioned contraction of lower back muscles and lengthened weak abdominal muscles is due to the muscles of the back being contracted/tense. Once the tension of the back goes the abdominal muscles regain their strength immediately. There are many reasons for the causes of the tension in the lower back. Once the cause of the tension goes, the abdominal regains it's strength. | ||
| |||
|
| ||
| http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/abdominal.html "Many individuals stand with their hips tilted forward (anterior pelvic tilt) due to tight or excessively shortened hip flexors. This position may exaggerate the arch in the lower back (Plowman, 1992); however, strong abdominals can counteract this anterior pelvic tilt by pulling up on the pelvis (Glisan & Hochsculer, 1990)." http://www.srcpt.com/blog/category/weak-abdominals/ "2. Weak Abdominals: Our sedentary lifestyle again is responsible for the chronic weakness in our abdominals. There is a “stretch weakness” that exists as well with the abdominals being inhibited by the tight hip flexors and lower back muscles. This is referred to as a “lower cross syndrome”. Tightness of hip flexors, coupled with weakness of the abdominals, especially the lower abs reduces the capacity of the trunk to successfully” stabilize” the lower back." Weak abdominal muscles do cause back pain By Peter E. Johnson, MD - Chicago "You doctors are very correct in that weakness in the abdominal or sit-up muscles do cause back pain in some, though not all individuals. Imagine if you will that the curvature of your spine is balanced between the muscle of the back and the muscle of the abdomen. If the abdomen is weak the spine assumes a curve forward or a sway back configuration placing more stress on the discs and joints within the spine. Strengthening the abdomen can reduce postural backache and strain or perhaps delay disc problems. It is an important part of any physical therapy program for back pain." http://www.spine-health.com/conditions/back-pain/back-muscles-and-low-back-pain "Muscle strength and flexibility are essential to maintaining the neutral spine position. Weak abdominal muscles cause hip flexor muscles to tighten causing an increase in the curve of the low back." http://steelecreekphysicaltherapy.com/aboutpt/golfpt.html "From a biomechanical perspective: weak abdominals caused increased stress on the ligaments and disc tissue at the end of his follow through leading to tissue break down and pain. Further, hip tightness increased stress on his back by forcing the back to rotate more than normal leading to pain. The weak hip muscles (which when weak will result in impaired spine stability) did not allow sufficient stability during the swing resulting in over activation of back muscles and injury. Treatment focused on decreasing abnormal and painful influences on his lower back. His treatment plan consisted of attending physical therapy 3 times per week for 4 weeks which included stretching specific muscles in his back and hips, as well as strengthening his core abdominals, back muscles, and specific hip muscles." http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Abdominal_muscles "ABDOMINAL MUSCLES EXPLAINED There are four main abdominal muscle groups that combine to completely cover the internal organs: Transversus abdominus – the deepest muscle layer. Its main roles are to stabilise the trunk and maintain internal abdominal pressure. Rectus abdominus – slung between the ribs and the pubic bone at the front of the pelvis. This muscle has the characteristic bumps or bulges, when contracting, that are commonly called ‘the six pack’. The main function of the rectus abdominus is to move the body between the ribcage and the pelvis. External oblique muscles – these are on each side of the rectus abdominus. The external oblique muscles allow the trunk to twist, but to the opposite side of whichever external oblique is contracting. For example, the right external oblique contracts to turn the body to the left. Internal oblique muscles – these flank the rectus abdominus and are located just inside the hipbones. They operate in the opposite way to the external oblique muscles. For example, twisting the trunk to the left requires the left side internal oblique and the right side external oblique to contract together. THE CORE Think of your core as a strong column that links the upper body and lower body together. Having a solid core creates a foundation for all activities. All our movements are powered by the torso – the abdominals and back work together to support the spine when we sit, stand, bend over, pick things up, exercise and more. Your core muscles refer to the muscles deep within the abdominals and back, attaching to the spine or pelvis. Some of these muscles include the transversus abdominis, the muscles of the pelvic floor, and the oblique muscles. Another muscle that is involved in moving the trunk is the: Multifidus – this is a deep back muscle that runs along the spine. It works together with the transversus abdominus to increase spine stability and protect against back injury or strain during movement or normal posture. Proper ‘core strengthening’ techniques, learned from a skilled allied health professional, can support the combined function of these muscle groups. I could go on and on, but I think that you get the point. Edited by jimg 2010-10-08 5:51 PM | |||
| |||
|
| ||
| i bet he won't. at least not the one you're trying to illustrate. | |||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574 | You don't need to go on and on Jimg. I already answered why the muscles are weak and how the strength can return, which is missed in your post and in the links you kindly posted. I asked you on your opinion on breathing after giving you a more detailed outlook. Don't worry yourself on repeating a weak abdomen is not good for the back-because a weak abdomen is a result of a tight back muscles. So ofcourse a physical therapist will note weak abs in cases of a bad back. What's also missing in the articles you posted is any mention of the brain which is at the heart of core mobility,flexibility and stability. Looking forward to the response to the breathing. This is what forums are for! | ||
| |||
|
| ||
| vibes, I didn't answer your last post on breathing because I didn't feel that you added anything new to the discussion. If you re-read my posts on breathing, you may notice that I do not at any point advocate non-movement of the chest cavity when breathing and I had already mentioned that the ribs go up and out like a pail handle, although you said bucket in your reply as if that was something new. (Pails and buckets are the same thing.) I see no reason to belabor the biomechanics of lifting your shoulders when breathing, as I feel totally secure in my view that it is to be avoided in yoga, singing and the playing of wind instruments, from many years of actual professional training and experience and not from some kind of theories that I read about somewhere. jimg | |||
| |||
| vibes |
| ||
Extreme Veteran Posts: 574 | Hey jimg, you mean to say you can only Move your shoulders up and tense the neck? That's a shame because you don't need to. Do you also tense your neck when moving shoulders forwards,back and down or in any movement? You can actually learn to have a neck that is flexibly free from the tension of what you do with your shoulders. If you do the cat movement with the abdominal Nmusclesmdrawn in all the time you can observe lessmmobity of the chest and back. If you | ||
| |||
| Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
| (Delete all cookies set by this site) | |